Is Sunpower price difference worth it? -- thoughts, posting as new topic

[sensij]

FWIW, I saw a contract last month for a E20-327 system, 16.4 kW for $58489... $3.57/W. At that size, I'd be looking for a non-Sunpower system approaching $3.00 / W, so there is still probably a 10%-15% premium in there. Here is the installer for that system:

Home Energy Systems

[MarkH180]

Mark, I agree with your comments. I've found the most vocal voices in solarpaneltalk are not pro S.P. except for footprint.
I went with SunPower and I have no regrets. I found a deal and paid a 10% premium vs. the best LG300 quote I could find.
I plan on being in my home for a very long time. The warranty, the company stability, the footprint, and the claimed production gains were worth the premium in my mind.
I did extensive research and what I found was benefits beyond just the name plate watts (which many base their claims of commoditizing solar). I was able to find good independent stats and spec sheets that showed the benefit in power produced at high temps, low irradiance, and longevity.
I'm sure some may call me a sucker for choosing S.P., but I've definitely spent waaaay too much time searching out the available data on the topic of LG vs. SP..

Hi Leffjouie:
Appreciate your opinion as well... Yes I just think I'm more on the side that there are logical, good arguments for paying more for Sunpower....that the argument isn't as simple or as obvious as a smaller footprint or aesthetics are the "main" or "only" different thing Sunpower offers as a company and a product -- that a solar consumer shouldn't necessarily discard Sunpower idea because they've heard it's "too expensive" The other factors you mention including company size and strength, and the extra 25-yr materials/labor/shipping included warranty, can be seen as differentiators from others like LG or SolarWorld.

It's a separate issue the question perception of how much price difference is still "worth it" -- for the 5 kW system example I mentioned if a Sunpower system quote is even a large 15-20% premium +$.70/watt DC more on gross, or about $2,500 more after 30% tax credit. Even if this adds a year to system payback, and you're looking at net comparison let's say
$12,200 vs. $14,700 net after tax credit, I think there are plenty of people in the market that could conclude that Sunpower is a better product / better company / better warranty, and that $2,500 is not out of the budget question, even if the two systems end up producing the same kWh/year.

I do agree that solar panels aren't exactly like the car market since it's not a product that consumers touch/feel each day -- good comment by JPM that you don't buy a Mercedes to carry groceries..... but I think the markets are at least similar in the way that for a car someone could say I just like this brand/reputation/reliability more than the other, and it's worth it to me to pay $2,500 for that car, even though it's a more expensive way to carry the groceries. But if the car has lower cost of maintenance ownership over a long period to have parts/labor covered for any defects, that could be a bonus.

I also think it's interesting and good in solar when looking at it in the context of consumer markets in general, that we're not dealing with a huge price difference such as a $35,000 car vs. a $25,000 car. Consumers are just SO much more familiar with the automobile market, which makes it so much more "known" or acceptable and common to pay $2,500 more for one car vs. another because of differences in brand, features, etc

Cheers and good debate! The more people that give their opinions the better as they look into the home solar market!

--

[J.P.M.]

Hi Leffjouie:
Appreciate your opinion as well... Yes I just think I'm more on the side that there are logical, good arguments for paying more for Sunpower....that the argument isn't as simple or as obvious as a smaller footprint or aesthetics are the "main" or "only" different thing Sunpower offers as a company and a product -- that a solar consumer shouldn't necessarily discard Sunpower idea because they've heard it's "too expensive" The other factors you mention including company size and strength, and the extra 25-yr materials/labor/shipping included warranty, can be seen as differentiators from others like LG or SolarWorld.

It's a separate issue the question perception of how much price difference is still "worth it" -- for the 5 kW system example I mentioned if a Sunpower system quote is even a large 15-20% premium +$.70/watt DC more on gross, or about $2,500 more after 30% tax credit. Even if this adds a year to system payback, and you're looking at net comparison let's say
$12,200 vs. $14,700 net after tax credit, I think there are plenty of people in the market that could conclude that Sunpower is a better product / better company / better warranty, and that $2,500 is not out of the budget question, even if the two systems end up producing the same kWh/year.

I do agree that solar panels aren't exactly like the car market since it's not a product that consumers touch/feel each day -- good comment by JPM that you don't buy a Mercedes to carry groceries..... but I think the markets are at least similar in the way that for a car someone could say I just like this brand/reputation/reliability more than the other, and it's worth it to me to pay $2,500 for that car, even though it's a more expensive way to carry the groceries. But if the car has lower cost of maintenance ownership over a long period to have parts/labor covered for any defects, that could be a bonus.

I also think it's interesting and good in solar when looking at it in the context of consumer markets in general, that we're not dealing with a huge price difference such as a $35,000 car vs. a $25,000 car. Consumers are just SO much more familiar with the automobile market, which makes it so much more "known" or acceptable and common to pay $2,500 more for one car vs. another because of differences in brand, features, etc

Cheers and good debate! The more people that give their opinions the better as they look into the home solar market!

--

1.) I may differ with your opinion but respect and share the glory and thankfulness to live in a country that respects your freedom to make a choice.
2.) On choice, one of the reasons I choose to own S.P. stock vs. other R.E., particularly solar equities, is because, IMO, their future is based on how well they play/prey on consumers' ignorance. The above post is, also IMO only, a good example of the results of their efforts at consumer education. Their product is good, Just not good enough to justify the premium. But, it's just business. I'm sure folks who own S.P. systems are as happy as folks who have a Mercedes or 2 parked in their garage.

[MarkH180]

So if I'm seeing a .$70/watt DC price difference on a 5.2 kW system between LG/SolarWorld vs. Sunpower, using $3.80/watt base (Northern CA)
This would be: $19,760 vs. $23,400 gross
After 30% fed tax credit: $13,832 net vs. $16,380 net

Curious what others think on this, others seeing Sunpower in the market.
For the Northern California market, I think Sunpower has a good foot-hold here with their headquarters in San Jose and Richmond

For the $2,500 net price difference above on 5.2 kW system comparison example, I think it's a decent sized group of consumers
who look a this and conclude -- and what could sway me a bit-- is that it's not a huge difference in dollar terms, and the value could be there
in the
--company size/25yr history/strength,
-warranty on panels themselves that covers labor, parts and shipping for 25yrs, and lastly,
--just a bonus idea that they feel they're getting a "top-of-the-line" company and panel itself (strength of construction / efficiency bonus) but not having the feeling they're having to pay a huge price difference...for example, it's not like having to pay such a big difference as $37,000 for a BMW 3 series vs $27,000 for a nice Toyota Camry

Curious if others in NorCal have had this experience looking at Sunpower as an option....whether one sees this type of $2,500 diff as not a big deal like in the car market and worth it for 25-yr company / company strength, OR, just not quite worth it, paying extra for warranty you might never need to use on the panels and extra efficiency you might not need and kind of being a sucker for Sunpower marketing?

Thanks....appreciate people's experience if you've gone through this comparing process as well.....

[DanS26]

Curious what others think on this, others seeing Sunpower in the market.
For the Northern California market, I think Sunpower has a good foot-hold here with their headquarters in San Jose and Richmond

For the $2,500 net price difference above on 5.2 kW system comparison example, I think it's a decent sized group of consumers
who look a this and conclude -- and what could sway me a bit-- is that it's not a huge difference in dollar terms, and the value could be there
in the
--company size/25yr history/strength,
-warranty on panels themselves that covers labor, parts and shipping for 25yrs, and lastly,
--just a bonus idea that they feel they're getting a "top-of-the-line" company and panel itself (strength of construction / efficiency bonus) but not having the feeling they're having to pay a huge price difference...for example, it's not like having to pay such a big difference as $37,000 for a BMW 3 series vs $27,000 for a nice Toyota Camry

Curious if others in NorCal have had this experience looking at Sunpower as an option....whether one sees this type of $2,500 diff as not a big deal like in the car market and worth it for 25-yr company / company strength, OR, just not quite worth it, paying extra for warranty you might never need to use on the panels and extra efficiency you might not need and kind of being a sucker for Sunpower marketing?

Thanks....appreciate people's experience if you've gone through this comparing process as well.....

My 2 cents worth of advice on this discussion is to not place too much value on the warranty claims of Sunpower or any panel manufacturer for that matter. Read those warranty statements very closely. They are worse than battery or tire warranties. If you have a problem you have to prove you have a problem at your cost before a claim is satisfied. In most cases that means an insolation/production test which is then compared to the panel degradation schedule.

The insolation test is costly....you have to demount the panel and then ship it to a certified testing station or have a testing company come to your site. Both very expensive and probably more that the value of the panel in question.

Then if you can prove the warranty claim and the supplier or manufacturer is still in business then they will satisfy the claim with "like kind" panels. That means you are not guarrantied the same specifications in size, color or even performance. In 10 years do you think you will find your exact panel anywhere? Highly unlikely with the rapid tech change in the panel industry.

My advice.......buy a few spare parts on the front end with the money you save by not buying an expensive warranty.

[Yaryman]

MarkH180, given the sales pitch you just gave, I could see how many people might think the extra $2500 was worth the "piece of mind".
That would of course be 100% absolutely wrong. But I could see that sales pitch working.

As pointed out already, if ( Sunpower ) make such a great product, and the failure rate for all panels is so low to begin with, why am I paying extra for a warranty I'll never use?

How do most people monitor the output of one panel, or all individual panels in general?

Without individual panel monitoring how would one know a panel died in 10 years?

[J.P.M.]

Curious what others think on this, others seeing Sunpower in the market.
For the Northern California market, I think Sunpower has a good foot-hold here with their headquarters in San Jose and Richmond

For the $2,500 net price difference above on 5.2 kW system comparison example, I think it's a decent sized group of consumers
who look a this and conclude -- and what could sway me a bit-- is that it's not a huge difference in dollar terms, and the value could be there
in the
--company size/25yr history/strength,
-warranty on panels themselves that covers labor, parts and shipping for 25yrs, and lastly,
--just a bonus idea that they feel they're getting a "top-of-the-line" company and panel itself (strength of construction / efficiency bonus) but not having the feeling they're having to pay a huge price difference...for example, it's not like having to pay such a big difference as $37,000 for a BMW 3 series vs $27,000 for a nice Toyota Camry

Curious if others in NorCal have had this experience looking at Sunpower as an option....whether one sees this type of $2,500 diff as not a big deal like in the car market and worth it for 25-yr company / company strength, OR, just not quite worth it, paying extra for warranty you might never need to use on the panels and extra efficiency you might not need and kind of being a sucker for Sunpower marketing?

Thanks....appreciate people's experience if you've gone through this comparing process as well.....

To your last sentence: Over the last 10 years or so, I've gone through it. A lot. Not only for myself, but about 85+ homeowners in my HOA, more than a few of whom own S.P. systems. We just are not in NorCal.

The S.P. owners in my HOA, as a group, and IMO only, that bought S.P., did so based largely based on their ignorance of what they were doing and partly/mostly bought (swallowed) the S.P. hype that owners usually then repeat as a robotic mantra (and BTW, which shows up on this forum ad nauseam from S.P. owners all the time).

Not only were they S.P. systems, but continuing the usual compounding of the reasons for non cost effectiveness, those systems were usually larger than optimum cost effectiveness would indicate.

But then, no salesperson ever got fired for selling too much.

All that seems ironic to me based on the overwhelming reason for solar in the first place - to save money - which reason is often/usually mixed in with some illogical and juvenile notion of getting even with the POCO for what is actually a self induced situation of high electric bills.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I'm curious to know why you consider the NorCal market so different than other locations with respect to any advantages/disadvantages for S.P. vs. other quality products. Same sun, same product(s). Same competition. Probably some of the same goals ?

Since most S.P. panels are made outside the U.S. except for a small mfg. facility in Malpitas, and other major system components are from all over the place, I don't see an advantage to being near the S.P. hdqrs., except that might skew the average price a smidge lower due to employee discounts.

More pay your money/take your choice, but if long term cost effectiveness and most bang for your buck mean anything in the calculus of residential solar, S.P. is, IMO only, almost always the least cost effective way to provide what is the most expensive means (that is, using PV) to reduce a residential electric bill, at least in the U.S., including NorCal.

[Yaryman]

Just Googled "failure rate solar panels". Almost every story on page one is from 2013 and you would get the impression there is a massive failure rate for solar panels.

[J.P.M.]

Just Googled "failure rate solar panels". Almost every story on page one is from 2013 and you would get the impression there is a massive failure rate for solar panels.

Haven't seen it. All I know with some confidence of observation and conversation w/ HOA owners and a lot of walking around is that over 8 years of installs of what's up to something like 1,600 - 1, 880 panels, none have failed. Now, in all honesty, some of those ~ 1,700 panels have only been producing for a few weeks, so the statistic is not as dramatic as it may look. Still, the low probability of failure of a quality product, S.P. or most any other panel from a reputable mfg. seems more than anecdotal at this point.

[Yaryman]

Haven't seen it. All I know with some confidence of observation and conversation w/ HOA owners and a lot of walking around is that over 8 years of installs of what's up to something like 1,600 - 1, 880 panels, none have failed. Now, in all honesty, some of those ~ 1,700 panels have only been producing for a few weeks, so the statistic is not as dramatic as it may look. Still, the low probability of failure of a quality product, S.P. or most any other panel from a reputable mfg. seems more than anecdotal at this point.

What the story call "failure" ( and it was just one story that everybody seemed to quote ) was producing at less than full capacity.

Not referring to the normal reduction in generation that is normal. Just producing a little less than it should be.

I'll ask in this post also, how does one know a panel has failed in 5 years unless they have individual panel monitoring?

[bcroe]

how does one know a panel has failed in 5 years unless they have individual panel monitoring?

I have 2 identical string inverters. All I need to do, is note power at a time there is no shade; they
should be very close to the same. If not I run out with a clamp on DC meter and determine which
is the weak string. Finding one, I check for a panel with lower voltage. I actually had to do this
to sort out some "bargain" panels. If I only had one inverter, I'd have to use the clamp on to
periodically compare strings. Bruce Roe

[DanS26]

I have 2 identical string inverters. All I need to do, is note power at a time there is no shade; they
should be very close to the same. If not I run out with a clamp on DC meter and determine which
is the weak string. Finding one, I check for a panel with lower voltage. I actually had to do this
to sort out some "bargain" panels. If I only had one inverter, I'd have to use the clamp on to
periodically compare strings. Bruce Roe

And that is why, when designing a string inverter system, it is best to specify two smaller inverters rather than one large inverter. Yes the cost is slightly more but the two inverter design has advantages. As Bruce mentioned above in tracking down problem panels but also if a panel does go down it does not affect the entire array since one half will be fully functioning while the other half is diminished or down for repair.

But I think the greatest advantage is that the problem is recognized immediately since the the inverter outputs can be compared daily, of course, with the right monitoring system.

[Yaryman]

I have 2 identical string inverters. All I need to do, is note power at a time there is no shade; they
should be very close to the same. If not I run out with a clamp on DC meter and determine which
is the weak string. Finding one, I check for a panel with lower voltage. I actually had to do this
to sort out some "bargain" panels. If I only had one inverter, I'd have to use the clamp on to
periodically compare strings. Bruce Roe

Bruce, thanks for responding. What is sounds like you are telling me is 99% of people would not know their Sunpower panels had gone bad.

My system is still pretty new, and I look at the PV outputs everyday. It's easy and fast. In the city where I live there are at least 500 residential solar installations.
Only 3 are on pvoutputs. Myself and the other 2 are members of this board.

Most people have very little tracking software, and even fewer use it. I rarely ever check the enphase Individual panel output display. No reason to.
Using the method you described is impossible if the string arrays aren't exactly equal. I would bet most 2 string systems are not exactly equal.

My conclusion.

So it's very unlikely a Sunpower panel will fail.
So it's really, really, unlikely you will detect a Sunpower panel has failed.
So what did that extra $2500 you paid for get you?

I guess you had better had really enjoy those Sunpower commercials. YOU PAID for them.

Sorry, but if you don't have the ability to do this is 15 seconds, you are NOT going to check your panel outputs.

monitor.jpg

[J.P.M.]

What the story call "failure" ( and it was just one story that everybody seemed to quote ) was producing at less than full capacity.

Not referring to the normal reduction in generation that is normal. Just producing a little less than it should be.

I'll ask in this post also, how does one know a panel has failed in 5 years unless they have individual panel monitoring?

As Dan and Bruce suggest, either 2 inverters and/or a clamp meter. I've got an array w/ 2 strings and an inverter w/ 2 MPPT's. They usually read a few Watts different under full sun, one panel out and I'd probably have a clue. For the question of which panel in a string of 8 ? For my case - only - As (I think !) I've got a pretty good handle on panel temps., I'd start by measuring them and look for the hot/cold ones in the suspect string which, once on the roof, would take me about 3 min. but that's probably an unusual solution.

I appreciate your point. There are ways to approach the dilemma you describe, most more/less workable and effective. Many folks here get what you're writing. Many more don't, and perhaps more importantly, don't care for any number of reasons as evidenced by how many average homeowners keep track of array output.

[Yaryman]

J.P.M., how many Solar Panel owners have a clamp meter? I don't.