An Introduction To Myself

[SolarNewb]

In my quest to learn about solar energy and how I may begin to use it here on our property, I found this web site. First a little about me:

My name is Greg, I'm retired (at an early age) and live on our two acres in Southern Nevada where I grow organic vegetables and herbs. For many years I've had a desire to become as self-sufficient as possible and getting off the grid has been number one on my list of things to do. I'm very mechanically inclined but an electrical engineer I'm not. In fact I know very little about solar energy nor how to create it. Living in the desert where I do we have plenty of sun so that's not a problem. Nor is having space on our two acres. Our problem is that we don't have a lot of money and going solar seems like it's a very - very costly venture. And this is something I don't understand. I read all the time where they're trying to get you to conserve on power usage - go green - get off the grid - etc. - etc., but then they make it cost prohibitive to do so. If they made it affordable for John Doe Homeowner to install solar panels you'd see them all over around here.

Anyway, I'm not going to bore you people with anymore information. I'll be returning with lots of questions as time goes on I'm sure. Please go easy on me as this is all new.

Greg

[Sunking]

Greg I am not sure who THEY are?

Solar panels are very costly to manufacture, and the manufactures are not going to give them away. Batteries and wiring materials are made from semi-precious metals are extremely energy intensive to manufacture and again they are not going to give them away. The people who install the equipment take years of training and experience to do what they do and will not work for free.

So I am not sure who you mean by THEY. If that means government, well they are more than happy to take my money and give to you in the form of rebates and incentives. The Government is also more than happy to apply a rather huge tax on electric rate payers to subsidize solar and that really hurts the working class and poor. I mean we are not entitled to anything, why should we be paying? Do you give your herbs and vegetables away?

Anyway welcome to the forum.

[SolarNewb]

I guess who I mean by they is the power companies - green organizations - the government - etc. As I mentioned in my OP I know nothing about solar and that's why I'm here - "To Learn." I have no knowledge about what it takes to build a panel - how much it costs - what the storage batteries cost and on and on. I do know this, a neighbor built a simple little setup for next to nothing to power an A/C unit that kept a large room he stored vegetables and canned goods in very - very cool, so it can be done. I know that's a far cry from supplying power to a whole house.

And BTW...Yes I do give my vegetables and herbs away...

Greg

[russ]

Hi Gregg, Welcome to Solar Panel Talk!

The major problem with solar PV and reality is that various groups (including the president) keep building up people's expectations when they have no idea about the topic except a few buzz words.

Green sites are the absolute worst offenders on this point. Maybe 1 in a hundred writers for the green sites have any idea of what they write about except that they want 'to do' something.

Since you have the land you could possibly consider a DIY system, if after studying the topic, you decide it is what you want to do. You need the skills and equipment - not an easy task but some of the guys here have done so and are quite happy.

Solar thermal (both hot water and warm air) are easier and less expensive - in many ways just as useful.

Welcome once again,
Russ

[SolarNewb]

Thanks for the welcome, Russ. Given that I'm very much in to growing organic vegetables and herbs, and at some point down the road I will be selling my produce to chefs in the Las Vegas area, I would like to begin learning solar by building a system, (if that's the correct terminology), that I can power a heating and A/C unit to a greenhouse. Now perhaps even that's far more difficult than it sounds, perhaps not. I feel that if I can learn how to do that I can move on to larger projects. Now if I'm just talking out my rear let me know, or if it's feasible please let me know that as well.

Greg

[russ]

Hi Gregg, I suggest you look into solar thermal (meaning hot water or hot air and possibly both. Heating with solar PV is a very expensive proposition.

Solar thermal is much more efficient in converting sunlight to heat than solar PV is in converting sunlight to electricity.

Solar thermal is far less expensive and less demanding on the technical side as well. Efficiency and serving the purpose id important - Politically Correct solar PV power is meaningless if there is a better way to go. The cost of the batteries required would shock you.

You can store heat in water for the greenhouse easily.

Then you need a far smaller PV system for lighting.

[Sunking]

I guess who I mean by they is the power companies - green organizations - the government - etc.

Well as far as electric utilities, they have nothing to do with making the prices high on solar, quite the opposite. Our wise local governments (state and federal ) forces utilities to pay home owners huge premiums to install and sell solar electric back to them at 3 to 4 times the cost they can buy it on the open market. Our government allows them to jack rates up and collect tariff taxes to cushion the blow. It does nothing to cut fossil fuel consumption. All it does is artificially inflate electric rates on everyone and force the utility to import more power from neighboring states at even higher prices.

have no knowledge about what it takes to build a panel - how much it costs - what the storage batteries cost and on and on.

Well here is your wake up call. If you go off-grid voluntary with commercial power available to you, you have just chosen to pay at a minimum of 10 times more for electricity for the rest of your life up front in cash for the first 5 years, and pay up front in cash every 5 consecutive years replacing very expensive batteries.

In Nevada you pay roughly 11 cents per Kwh. So if you use 1 Kwh per day that cost you $3.35 per month, $40.26 per year, and $202 for 5 years.

Ok to replace that same Kwh with off grid solar in NV will cost you roughly $3300/Kwh for the first 5 years. After 5 years you get to replace a $1000 battery stack and every 5 years thereafter at even higher cost. Now here is the fun and educational part You use way more than 1 Kwh per day. Try 20 to 40 Kwh per day. Multiply that out and tell me if you have the cash? I told you it was FUN.

So if you have to sell your vegetables at 2 to 3 times higher cost than your next door neighbor on the grid with much less overhead; how long will you be in business?

[SolarNewb]

So If I'm understanding this correctly, solar is just not worth it! What a shame. My wife and I have cut back to bare bones usage from the power company and they just keep raising the rates. It won't be long before we're using candles and cooking over a wood stove, and I'm not kidding. And in our area where people are losing their jobs and their homes, the power and water companies have not laid-off one of their employees, not that I would like to see anyone lose their job. They just keep raising the rates. Wow, what a wake-up call. Thanks for the information...

Greg

[scheek]

Welcome to the forum. You will learn a lot. I have. There are a lot of smart guys on this site and many like me "not so smart".

If you are learning I think you should begin with the understanding that solar power is no more than a "battery charger". You will have to have a "bank" of batteries to produce your electricity after converting from DC to AC. Solar panels only charge them. Batteries are expensive and you will have to have good ones, not car batteries.

With that said, you can do this, but first you need a problem of why you don't or can't get electricity to an area and that be the reason for needing an alternative electrical source. My case, was I have a cabin with no way to get power to it. For me, this is a way to do that. You may have a shed or building that you can't supply electrical to. That will be a reason.

Until congress gets the tax credits right for solar owners then you cannot make electricity cheap enough with a full blown system to offset the cost. The tax credit is the only way to offset that investment price.

I suggest start small before jumping in too deep. It's fun to learn.

Good luck.

[FLETCHMAN]

Greg,

I am new to this site also. If you are looking to get off the grid as you say and you are interested in building your own solar farm with a limited budget try this site out www.solar-deals.com they seam to have pretty good deals on solar panels and items you may need to produce your own power. Also from what i have read a small home solar system would cost around $25000 and a large house around $50000. Im not sure what your budget is, but take this into consideration if you put a solar system in and it cost you $25k what is the payback on your investment? How long will it take to get your money back? and also how much $$$ will it take to upkeep the system? Good luck with the desicion that you make on this.

[netttech]

Welcome Greg, you did find a site that tells the whole truth....take advantage of the real truth. Russ has it right, the hype by the 'green' advocates DON'T tell the whole story.
It's an adgenda to make you believe everything can be all rosy if 'everyone' would 'go green' (getting to hate that term). I've never seen anything more than hype & the expense is always 'omitted'. Wind Power isn't much different.
I too (admittedly) was suckered in by the 'free power', etc, etc. claims When I really look at my power consumption (winter), it isn't electric, but nat gas expense. That's when I decided to pursue Solar Thermal. I'm 'hoping' to create a solar hot water system to circulate the heated water thru the house. I AM intending to use solar PV to pump the hot water.

I totally understand your concern about the rising prices of utilities. I also realized at some point I may not be able to afford to heat my house, because of it. That's why I started tinkering with Solar thermal (space heating initially) 5 years ago.

This is a great site, ask away. You can't make good decisions, unless you have good information!
Jeff

[Sunking]

So If I'm understanding this correctly, solar is just not worth it! What a shame.

I did not say that my friend. I said going off grid with batteries has no chance of a ROI and should not be considered if you have commercial power available to you.

In certain states like AZ and CA where your neighbors pick up most of the cost, have excellent Solar Insolation, and very high electric rates you can achieve an ROI in 6 to 15 years out with a Grid Tied System, but only at your neighbors expense. NV has excellent Solar Insolation but i am not sure about state rebates and utility incentives for NV.

I am sorry to hear you are struggling, but if you cannot afford your current utility bill, I am almost certain you cannot afford solar unless you are talking about ronly using a very meagar 1 to 3 Kwh per day and your utility charges high montly connect and service charges. 1 to 3 Kwh per day is about enough to run a refrigerator, a few lights, a laptop, and a small TV each day. To do that with solar battery is $3K per Kwh

[russ]

Hi Gregg,

A couple of sites about DIY for solar thermal:

1) At http://www.builditsolar.com/ they have all sorts of projects that can be done without going into bankruptcy

2) At http://www.ffwdm.com/solar/solar-index.htm you see a concentrator system that a fellow by the name of George has put together as a pool heater. This could be adapted for a greenhouse heater by having hot water storage in the greenhouse. George has a system that can be built by any handyman and you sound like that would be a good fit.

Being green has nothing to do with pissing your money away. It has to do with being as efficient as possible - at least that is my opinion.

Solar thermal (hot water & warm air) can reach efficiencies in the 80% range in some cases. Solar PV is closer to 15% and lower. Solar thermal is far-far less costly.

[russ]

The problem I have with the solar deals link is that they are pure resellers - nothing wrong in that except they show practically zero details about the panels. A web search returns no such company. Maybe the panels are Evergreen Solar?

Far better to deal with someone that provides detailed specs, warranties etc up front without you having to ask. When they don't do that I wonder what is being hidden.

Always remember, there are many, many shysters out there waiting for a sucker to come along. The shysters love the green sector as they understand most people have a limited understanding of what they are getting in to.

[Adonyx]

Solar-Deals.com is a SCAM. Rip-off artists & internet robbers

Greg,

I am new to this site also. If you are looking to get off the grid as you say and you are interested in building your own solar farm with a limited budget try this site out www.solar-deals.com they seam to have pretty good deals on solar panels and items you may need to produce your own power. Also from what i have read a small home solar system would cost around $25000 and a large house around $50000. Im not sure what your budget is, but take this into consideration if you put a solar system in and it cost you $25k what is the payback on your investment? How long will it take to get your money back? and also how much $$$ will it take to upkeep the system? Good luck with the desicion that you make on this.

Read the reviews about "solar-deals.com" on this and other forums. They're scammers pure and simple. I wish I had read before I ordered from them. They stole $116.14 from me and refused to answer any of my phone calls or emails for two weeks. I finally got a response from them today via email only after i loudly and repeatedly threatened them. All they said in their response is they deny that they took my money, and offered that I give them more. Unreal. Now I've got to go through the process of filing a dispute through my bank, cancelling my debit card, filing with authorities, etc etc. I hope that by sharing this experience I can help other people avoid being ganked by these jackals.