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  • non sequitur
    Junior Member
    • Nov 2015
    • 5

    #1

    Miami Florida 10kW quote for $30K, but does it make sense?

    Firstly this forum is amazing with information, and I've done lots of digging. Unfortunately I was unable to do a search that would yield local results, which would probably dispense with a lot of my questions, so I'll collect and post them here.

    Background: I got a quote for a 10,000 watt system for about $28,000 (if all cash) from a company with a long relationship with Sun Edison, but due to SunEd's recent problems (stock price drop 40% last week), they quickly pivoted to Canadian Solar's panels. Using the forum's guidance, I found the optimum fixed angle for my system should be 22.7 degrees (my roof being 5 degrees). Using PVWatts calculator (another great tip from this forum), and inputting the 22.7 degrees, it tells me that a 10Mw system will generate an Energy Value of $1506/year (using the FPL energy utility rate of about 10-cents). Interestingly, if I put the angle in as being 5 degrees (so system would be flush with the roof), the value is still $1439 (only $60 less, but makes my roof a lot safer in a hurricane situation). Last piece of info: my FPL (electricity) bill is about $2200/year (not sure of my KWh usage though).

    So here are the questions:
    1. With the above information, am I correct in concluding that it would take a long time to get payback of the investment? Let's say I pay $28K and get the 30% federal tax credit, putting the "bottom line" at $20K. Then the $1439/1506 numbers above mean that I'm looking at a break-even of 13-14 years? A post somewhere on the forum said the target breakeven should be 6-7 years max, so if my calculations are right (are they?), then is this unwise?

    2. We have no State incentives (there was a $2/watt rebate from FPL that ran out very quickly in January, and it won't be repeated in 2016 by all indications). So are the only financial considerations: a) the 30% federal credit ending in 2016 (unless it's renewed) and b) the ongoing drop in panel prices, or am I overlooking something else?

    3. The Company I got the quote from was Bison Roofing and Solar, and they seem well qualified and credentialed, but if anyone here is from FL and has first-hand experience, I'd love to hear it.

    4. I have no wind insurance (it's expensive, and my mortgage was paid off, so I dropped it). The proposal is to bolt the panels to the vertical seams of my metal roof, and while that's the least "invasive" way to do this, I'm concerned the solar panels drastically raise my vulnerability to a wind storm (bolting right on to the trusses beneath would make the panels more secure, but also mess up the leak-proof roof). Any thoughts from Floridians with first-hand experience on the hurricane and insurance aspects of solar panels?

    5. My internet search of "Canadian Solar" didn't turn up anything bad, but is there a quality difference between the products and the monitoring software of Canadian Solar and those from Sun Edison? If Sun Edison goes bankrupt, does that mean no more warranty? Can't the same thing happen to ANY company?
    Last edited by inetdog; 11-23-2015, 06:50 PM. Reason: changed 10MW to 10kW in title
  • J.P.M.
    Solar Fanatic
    • Aug 2013
    • 15015

    #2
    Given your relatively low energy cost, the return on that investment may not be as lucrative as some other investments or solar in some other locations.

    Call your POCO and get your usage. Then compare it to the PVWatts long term average output estimate. Not doing so is simply foolish.

    Comment

    • foo1bar
      Solar Fanatic
      • Aug 2014
      • 1833

      #3
      Originally posted by non sequitur
      Last piece of info: my FPL (electricity) bill is about $2200/year (not sure of my KWh usage though).

      So here are the questions:
      1. With the above information, am I correct in concluding that it would take a long time to get payback of the investment? Let's say I pay $28K and get the 30% federal tax credit, putting the "bottom line" at $20K. Then the $1439/1506 numbers above mean that I'm looking at a break-even of 13-14 years? A post somewhere on the forum said the target breakeven should be 6-7 years max, so if my calculations are right (are they?), then is this unwise?
      1st thing for you to do is get your actual kWh usage and check the $/kwh.

      13 years is a little long IMO....

      Anything over 10 I would look at very closely.

      Comment

      • SunEagle
        Super Moderator
        • Oct 2012
        • 15161

        #4
        Originally posted by foo1bar
        1st thing for you to do is get your actual kWh usage and check the $/kwh.

        13 years is a little long IMO....

        Anything over 10 I would look at very closely.
        Just about all of the pvwatts calcs I have run get an ROI greater than 10 years unless you get a cost of < $2/watt after taxes refund. Our rates are just very low and unless you use a lot of kWh it is a hard cost justification to go with solar in the Sunny State.

        Comment

        • non sequitur
          Junior Member
          • Nov 2015
          • 5

          #5
          Originally posted by foo1bar
          1st thing for you to do is get your actual kWh usage and check the $/kwh.
          I have a beautiful chart I'd love to post a picture of here, but can't figure out how to do it.
          Anyway, for the last 12 months it says my average monthly usage was 1378 kWh, so the yearly total must be 16,536.

          Comment

          • non sequitur
            Junior Member
            • Nov 2015
            • 5

            #6
            Originally posted by SunEagle
            Just about all of the pvwatts calcs I have run get an ROI greater than 10 years unless you get a cost of < $2/watt after taxes refund. Our rates are just very low and unless you use a lot of kWh it is a hard cost justification to go with solar in the Sunny State.
            Great to have the local perspective, SunEagle.
            Do my pvwatts calculations look right to you?
            As I posted separately, my annual usage is 16,536 kWh, if that matters.
            If I pay cash, my cost would be about $2.78/watt, which seems pretty good compared with other posts.
            I can kind of take a 10 year ROI, but 14 seems a little hard to swallow, given that not much in FL lasts 14 years in the intense sun.

            Comment

            • SunEagle
              Super Moderator
              • Oct 2012
              • 15161

              #7
              Originally posted by non sequitur
              Great to have the local perspective, SunEagle.
              Do my pvwatts calculations look right to you?
              As I posted separately, my annual usage is 16,536 kWh, if that matters.
              If I pay cash, my cost would be about $2.78/watt, which seems pretty good compared with other posts.
              I can kind of take a 10 year ROI, but 14 seems a little hard to swallow, given that not much in FL lasts 14 years in the intense sun.
              I have been averaging about 1500 kWh a month the past 3 years which is a little more than you and based on some recent reductions I expect to go below1400 kWh. I also never calculated a system that would generate more than 60% of my usage since I do not really have enough roof space facing South and West to get more.

              When I used pvwatts for a 6kw system with a net price of $2/watt I kept coming up with 8 to 10 years payback. Any higher $/watt cost would get me a longer payback. Since I do not plan to stay even 8 years it is not worth that type of investment.

              So maybe you can find a system that gets you closer to $2/watt but with a rate < $0.13/kWh it is hard to make the numbers work out to less than 10 years even if you used a lot more kWh.

              Comment

              • ndabunka
                Member
                • Nov 2015
                • 40

                #8
                Originally posted by SunEagle
                ...When I used pvwatts for a 6kw system with a net price of $2/watt I kept coming up with 8 to 10 years payback. Any higher $/watt cost would get me a longer payback. Since I do not plan to stay even 8 years it is not worth that type of investment.
                Why are you "ignoring" the value of the system when you move out? Just because YOU may elect not to have remained in the home for an extended duration is short sighted IMHO.

                I have seen and heard of people getting premium prices for homes being sold with solar already in place (e.g. Sellers getting their $230K asking price while other IDENTICAL homes are being sold for $210K). It appears that you have neglected to INCLUDE that (potential) value in your calculations.

                Comment

                • SunEagle
                  Super Moderator
                  • Oct 2012
                  • 15161

                  #9
                  Originally posted by ndabunka
                  Why are you "ignoring" the value of the system when you move out? Just because YOU may elect not to have remained in the home for an extended duration is short sighted IMHO.

                  I have seen and heard of people getting premium prices for homes being sold with solar already in place (e.g. Sellers getting their $230K asking price while other IDENTICAL homes are being sold for $210K). It appears that you have neglected to INCLUDE that (potential) value in your calculations.
                  What you have heard and what is going on in real estate is totally different. An existing solar pv system actually has dropped the price of a home's resale around here (and in most other places based on info from a couple of friends that are Realtors).

                  It is not a benefit but a detraction. So not short sighted at all.

                  Comment

                  • ndabunka
                    Member
                    • Nov 2015
                    • 40

                    #10
                    Originally posted by SunEagle
                    What you have heard and what is going on in real estate is totally different. An existing solar pv system actually has dropped the price of a home's resale around here (and in most other places based on info from a couple of friends that are Realtors).

                    It is not a benefit but a detraction. So not short sighted at all.
                    The only ones it is HARMING the values on are those that were foolish enough to allow another company to "profit" off their roof buy leasing. Home that have LEASED solar can be a nightmare to sell and most of that is due to the FACT that the original home owner AGREED to a contract to lease their roof.

                    Wholely-owned solar installations INCREASE the homes value (at least at this time). These details come from a friend of mine who is a PROFESSIONAL Real Estate Appraiser (rather than hearsay)

                    Comment

                    • non sequitur
                      Junior Member
                      • Nov 2015
                      • 5

                      #11
                      Originally posted by SunEagle
                      What you have heard and what is going on in real estate is totally different. An existing solar pv system actually has dropped the price of a home's resale around here (and in most other places based on info from a couple of friends that are Realtors).

                      It is not a benefit but a detraction. So not short sighted at all.
                      The Bison salesman said several times in the presentation that the solar system "raises the value of the home 5%", which I pretty much ignored as a criteria either pro or con, but I am a (not very active) Realtor myself, and I'd heard mixed things about the impact on resale value. I can't understand why cheaper (or nearly free) electricity would be a negative for any potential buyer, but maybe the issue is additional windstorm insurance premium? While I may not agree that it would increase value, I really can't see how it would diminish it either, so worst case it's a wash (I say with my realtor cap on).

                      Comment

                      • non sequitur
                        Junior Member
                        • Nov 2015
                        • 5

                        #12
                        Originally posted by ndabunka
                        The only ones it is HARMING the values on are those that were foolish enough to allow another company to "profit" off their roof buy leasing. Home that have LEASED solar can be a nightmare to sell and most of that is due to the FACT that the original home owner AGREED to a contract to lease their roof.

                        Wholely-owned solar installations INCREASE the homes value (at least at this time). These details come from a friend of mine who is a PROFESSIONAL Real Estate Appraiser (rather than hearsay)
                        Ah - yes this interpretation makes more sense. A potential buyer is going to be reluctant to read/understand/accept a complicated leasing agreement - could be like 'buying a lawsuit', and could potentially diminish the salability of the house. Whereas an owned system I agree couldn't legitimately be seen as decreasing value (it may not IN-crease value as much as a salesman says, but shouldn't hurt value at all).

                        Comment

                        • SunEagle
                          Super Moderator
                          • Oct 2012
                          • 15161

                          #13
                          Originally posted by ndabunka
                          The only ones it is HARMING the values on are those that were foolish enough to allow another company to "profit" off their roof buy leasing. Home that have LEASED solar can be a nightmare to sell and most of that is due to the FACT that the original home owner AGREED to a contract to lease their roof.

                          Wholely-owned solar installations INCREASE the homes value (at least at this time). These details come from a friend of mine who is a PROFESSIONAL Real Estate Appraiser (rather than hearsay)
                          My data also comes from a local Real Estate Appraiser as well as a friend who is a PROFESSIONAL Realtor. As of now there aren't any leased pv systems because it is not legal to have one per existing laws.

                          Maybe homes in NC or CA with owned pv systems have higher values but not here on the West coast of Florida. When I get into my final home I am planning on installing a pv system but it does not make any financial sense to put one in now even with the Federal tax credit.

                          Comment

                          • diogenes
                            Solar Fanatic
                            • Jul 2015
                            • 175

                            #14
                            when it comes to home value increase or decrease, does it make a difference if the panels are ground mount?

                            Comment

                            • ButchDeal
                              Solar Fanatic
                              • Apr 2014
                              • 3802

                              #15
                              Originally posted by diogenes
                              when it comes to home value increase or decrease, does it make a difference if the panels are ground mount?
                              probably , depending on the size of the yard and how much is obstructed.
                              Roof mount would generally be preferred for resale, as there would be no yard loss.
                              OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

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