New minimum $10/month "Delivery Charge" for SCE customers.

[sensij]

The CA Climate credit is real money, and can be used to pay any real charges (including the minimum bill). When the minimum was lower, it was conceivable that the climate credit would get paid to you as a check, but with the higher minimums, they will exceed the credit.

You can use more energy to lower the monthly amount due, but it won't really affect the annual reconciliation. A good way to think about it (thanks thejq) is that the minimum is like minutes on a cell phone plan... you are charged $120 a year, and you get 667 kWh of energy (assuming an average cost of 0.18 / kWh). Use less energy, too bad (there is no rollover). Use more, and your bill increases to cover it. Whether the minimums are assessed and paid monthly or annually, it will all wash out in the end.

[FFE]

Could I "use" more electricity to lower my yearly credit and help eliminate my monthly minimum charge?

This question seems absurd. However, the answer might be yes. If you use more energy, your amount due for the bill would be less. But as others have posted, you might have to pay some of it back at your annual true up. I have yet to see any evidence that this has or will happened to anyone or even a first hand post from an SCE customer. Also, the CA climate credit might pay for some of this. Maybe someone else can chime in about wether or not the CA climate credit can.

My example for my last bill (same dates as yours): I managed to use 522 kWh super off peak. This allowed me to "pay" more than the minimum $10 in delivery charges. The amount of my new charges on my bill is less than $1.10. My energy charge for the month was about -$9. So I managed to avoid paying the minimum due and still end up with a net credit. We also have a BEV and a PHEV. You might pay less in your monthly bill if you charged more at home or intentionally used more energy.

[OftheSeven]

I received my November bill today and the TOU + $10 min charge has me confused. I've read through FFE's explanation and it makes sense, sorta. Wanted to get clarification for my situation.

I installed solar May 2015 and switched from tiered to TOU-A in August. I have a BEV and a PHEV that I only charge during super off-peak and not always to full as I use free charging at other sites.
This is the first month I have to pay. It's only $2.06 but it's also the month with my greatest "tracked energy" credit generation. I understand the tracked charges/credits are for the year and reset to zero.

Could I "use" more electricity to lower my yearly credit and help eliminate my monthly minimum charge?

[silversaver]

Yes, your true up statement will be a good test of the case FFE laid out. I'm maintaining that you will have an extra $20 or so tacked on at your true up to pay for minimum charges in these last couple months, in which you have paid your bill with NEM credits. In your case, it might still not result in money owed because the total due will be less than the CA Climate credit, but you would get a smaller check from them than you otherwise might. We will see!

I'll share once that info is available. I think would help to clear out few things. The CA climate credit will definitely help to off set some charges and that is what I did without withdraw the money but leaving in the my account.

[sensij]

Yes, your true up statement will be a good test of the case FFE laid out. I'm maintaining that you will have an extra $20 or so tacked on at your true up to pay for minimum charges in these last couple months, in which you have paid your bill with NEM credits. In your case, it might still not result in money owed because the total due will be less than the CA Climate credit, but you would get a smaller check from them than you otherwise might. We will see!

[silversaver]

PG&E, SCE, and SDG&E are all regulated by the CPUC. It is a CPUC decision that authorized the minimum bill, and allowed that NEM credits could not be used to offset that bill. The implementation for an annual bill, used by all three poco's, turns into $0.329 / day * 365 day = $120. They have each taken a different approach to presenting the accounting in the monthly statement, but at the end of the year, the result will be the same... a minimum charge of $120, if your energy charges total up to something less than that.

Believe what you'd like, but the information you've gotten here is consistent with everything that forum members who have been through a true-up have stated, and with what the companies have published. If you can provide an SCE true-up statement that shows something else, I'll happily concede to new information, but I don't think you will be able to produce one.

Here is the info link from SCE, but please read "when" the minimum charge will apply. I'll attach my bill closing date after Oct 1st, 2015 (10/13/2015 to 11/12/2015) and I don't see any minimum charge in my account. I'm in month 12 of my relevant period, it is very easy to show you what I have after Dec 14th true up time.

https://www.sce.com/wps/wcm/connect/4e6b6a55-f0af-4b12-8f5f-4452314c997d/Minimum_Bill_Charge_4.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&attachment=false&id=1447808072785

[sensij]

You are right.

This post is about SCE. I do understand people like to help out and input, but I don't understand why they keep feeding the the info that is not SCE but their own POCO.

Seriously, for those don't know about SCE's new min charge, pls just read. I have been reading info that is incorrect from same people who are willing to help but not getting the right info. Pls do not mix SCE with your POCO.

We need the correct info.

PG&E, SCE, and SDG&E are all regulated by the CPUC. It is a CPUC decision that authorized the minimum bill, and allowed that NEM credits could not be used to offset that bill. The implementation for an annual bill, used by all three poco's, turns into $0.329 / day * 365 day = $120. They have each taken a different approach to presenting the accounting in the monthly statement, but at the end of the year, the result will be the same... a minimum charge of $120, if your energy charges total up to something less than that.

Believe what you'd like, but the information you've gotten here is consistent with everything that forum members who have been through a true-up have stated, and with what the companies have published. If you can provide an SCE true-up statement that shows something else, I'll happily concede to new information, but I don't think you will be able to produce one.

[silversaver]

The above might be true for PG&E.

But, it looks like PG&E bills differently than SCE. I didn't read all their information, but it looks like they plan on collecting the minimum each month and then applying it on what you owe at the end of the year. Very different than SCE. Since this thread mostly refers to SCE I will only type the following based on the information SCE provides on their website and my actual bill:

It is absolutely possible to pay less than $120 in minimum charges per year with SCE if you are on their TOU-A plan.

Since the minimum only applies to delivery charges and the line item for the baseline credit is not part of the delivery charges it is possible to pay less than than $0.329 per day and still have a net NEM credit any given month.

It is also possible on any of their plans to pay less than $120. For example, on the months you generate excess you will pay the $0.329 per day which is about $10. However, on the months you use more than you generate you will not be charged the minimum. For example 6 months of the year you pay the $10 every month and generate a NEM credit of $300. The following 6 months you use more than you generate and will not have to pay the minimum. Lets say you end up using $50 of SCE's power each of those 6 months. Now you have a net NEM of 0. You only paid $60 in minimum charges. Unless they charge you additional minimum charges at the end of the year and send you a bill for $60 you are set. I have not seen anything from SCE indicating the end of the year thing could happen.

For me specifically I paid only $0.14 out of pocket per day in minimum charges so far yet averaged over $1.00 per day in NEM credit. Unless SCE changes their written policy, I already am ahead of the $120 per year in minimum charges and plan on paying about $60-80 in minimum charges for the 12 month period. Again, the only way they can collect the full $120 from me at this point is to bill me extra 11 months from now. One way of explaining it is I already "offset" part of the minimum ($3.56 of delivery charges in my example), but I "offset" that part with generation credits and baseline credits since that falls in the tracked annual NEM section. Or look at it this way: I did "pay" $0.329 per day, but about half of it was "paid" for with the generation I "sold" back to them.

What you need to do is size your system correctly and be on the right plan for your situation. If your system is greatly oversized you will pay the $120 in minimum charges for the year. If everything works out perfectly you could pay less than $60 on a properly sized system. If your system is undersized, well you will pay for the electricity you use plus a little extra on the months you produce more than you consume.

You are right.

This post is about SCE. I do understand people like to help out and input, but I don't understand why they keep feeding the the info that is not SCE but their own POCO.

Seriously, for those don't know about SCE's new min charge, pls just read. I have been reading info that is incorrect from same people who are willing to help but not getting the right info. Pls do not mix SCE with your POCO.

We need the correct info.

[sensij]

You only paid $60 in minimum charges. Unless they charge you additional minimum charges at the end of the year and send you a bill for $60 you are set. I have not seen anything from SCE indicating the end of the year thing could happen.

This is exactly what will happen.

[FFE]

... You'll pay $0 in the true-up, but you'll always have paid at least $120 over the year.

The above might be true for PG&E.

But, it looks like PG&E bills differently than SCE. I didn't read all their information, but it looks like they plan on collecting the minimum each month and then applying it on what you owe at the end of the year. Very different than SCE. Since this thread mostly refers to SCE I will only type the following based on the information SCE provides on their website and my actual bill:

It is absolutely possible to pay less than $120 in minimum charges per year with SCE if you are on their TOU-A plan.

Since the minimum only applies to delivery charges and the line item for the baseline credit is not part of the delivery charges it is possible to pay less than than $0.329 per day and still have a net NEM credit any given month.

It is also possible on any of their plans to pay less than $120. For example, on the months you generate excess you will pay the $0.329 per day which is about $10. However, on the months you use more than you generate you will not be charged the minimum. For example 6 months of the year you pay the $10 every month and generate a NEM credit of $300. The following 6 months you use more than you generate and will not have to pay the minimum. Lets say you end up using $50 of SCE's power each of those 6 months. Now you have a net NEM of 0. You only paid $60 in minimum charges. Unless they charge you additional minimum charges at the end of the year and send you a bill for $60 you are set. I have not seen anything from SCE indicating the end of the year thing could happen.

For me specifically I paid only $0.14 out of pocket per day in minimum charges so far yet averaged over $1.00 per day in NEM credit. Unless SCE changes their written policy, I already am ahead of the $120 per year in minimum charges and plan on paying about $60-80 in minimum charges for the 12 month period. Again, the only way they can collect the full $120 from me at this point is to bill me extra 11 months from now. One way of explaining it is I already "offset" part of the minimum ($3.56 of delivery charges in my example), but I "offset" that part with generation credits and baseline credits since that falls in the tracked annual NEM section. Or look at it this way: I did "pay" $0.329 per day, but about half of it was "paid" for with the generation I "sold" back to them.

What you need to do is size your system correctly and be on the right plan for your situation. If your system is greatly oversized you will pay the $120 in minimum charges for the year. If everything works out perfectly you could pay less than $60 on a properly sized system. If your system is undersized, well you will pay for the electricity you use plus a little extra on the months you produce more than you consume.

[wwu123]

Only time will tell. But paying $80 or $120 or $180 for the year sounds awesome to me.

Same problem with the second link except the minimum charge for those months are about $4 even though they used way more than $10 in electricity.

I guess since they charge you for it when they shouldn't at least they credit it back to you. Seems like complicated accounting compared to the SCE way.

Since the minimum is what is actually paid each month, it is really a credit balance that settles at the end of the true-up year. So $10 x 12 months = $120 credit balance. So at the end of the true-up, if your NEMS balance is $121, then you get credited $120 you already paid, and will be asked to settle $1 for the annual true-up.

But because it is also a minimum charge, if your NEMS balance is only $118, they'll credit you the $120, but they won't refund you for the -$2 credit balance but will zero things out. You'll pay $0 in the true-up, but you'll always have paid at least $120 over the year.

[wwu123]

Read this... SCE, PG&E, and SDG&E all do the same thing, PG&E just documents it best.

http://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/myhome/saveenergymoney/solarenergy/NEM_brochure.pdf

Some of the numbers don't add up anymore because they changed the minimum bill to $10 to reflect the new tariff, without updating the subtotals. Lame... a couple weeks ago this was a better example.

Edit:

Found a version that hadn't been modified. The numbers actually add up on this one:

http://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdf...uts-trueup.pdf

One thing to PG&E's credit is that they have been tweaking these graphs and summaries, apparently truly have been trying to make the solar summaries easier to understand. But while they've improved on the NEMS side, they didn't explain the minimum so well. Since the minimums actually true-up annually as well, what they should have done was plot the running cumulative minimum balance (item 7 on the 1st brochure) with the running cumulative NEMS balance (graph 9 on the 1st brochure), that way people know that at the end of the 12 months you'll settle based on the higher of the two cumulative balances, though you've already paid the cumulative minimum balance over the year. (Or these are item 4 and graph 6 respectively in the 2nd version of the brochure.)

I was logged into the PG&E site a few days ago to look at the online usage and NEMS summaries, and they did pop up a 15-question survey asking for my feedback and usage on the solar-specific pages, including how to improve them. I should've made the suggestion above.

[sensij]

I guess since they charge you for it when they shouldn't at least they credit it back to you. Seems like complicated accounting compared to the SCE way.

Every month you pay a minimum bill with SCE, you are doing the same thing. If you eventually have a month as a net consumer, the amount you are charged that month, if it is big enough, will cover your minimums from the net generation months, and you will get the minimum that you paid earlier credited to you at true-up. The minimums get reconciled over the whole year, even though they get presented and paid on a monthly basis. The point is that it will all add up to at least $120.

[FFE]

Check the 2nd link, the numbers are correct in that one. I am saying that you will pay at least $120 annually going forward. A "properly sized" system will probably have you paying somewhat more, because 100% offset isn't likely to be the most cost-effective size.

Only time will tell. But paying $80 or $120 or $180 for the year sounds awesome to me.

Same problem with the second link except the minimum charge for those months are about $4 even though they used way more than $10 in electricity.

I guess since they charge you for it when they shouldn't at least they credit it back to you. Seems like complicated accounting compared to the SCE way.

[sensij]

I believe the takeaway should be that if you have a properly sized system, you will pay about $70-80 for electricity to your power company for the year according to me. Not sure what sensij is saying, but I think he is saying less.

The links he provided make no sense. On the bills it shows the customer owes more than $10 most months but still has a $10 minimum charge????

PG&E might be different than SCE.

Check the 2nd link, the numbers are correct in that one. I am saying that you will pay at least $120 annually going forward, whether it is in monthly payments or at the end of the year when it is reconciled. A "properly sized" system will probably have you paying somewhat more, because 100% offset isn't likely to be the most cost-effective size.

Here is a link to the SCE version. Near the end and underlined it states NEM credits... are not allowed to offset the Balance of Minimum charge.

https://www.sce.com/wps/wcm/connect/...=1447808072785

Exactly. Minimum bill (annually) needs to be paid, regardless of what your NEM generation credits look like. That is why you can't escape the $10 / mo. Only things like the CA climate credit, or Reduce your Use credits, etc will chip away at it.