Any hope for a 1980s all-eletric home in Massachusetts?

[mpkelley20]

I'm in NH and thought I'd be getting about $50/ SREC. (Have not gotten my first check yet) Is $285 a current number for MA? Seems high to me, especially long term. Anyone else have some thoughts on this?

SRECS in MA are currently pretty high. $250 is on the low end. Over $400, if you time the sale right, is not unheard of. Depends on how to sell them. Through auto quarterly systems, you supposedly average around $250- $300. If you go to auction, maybe get more.

While our SRECs might be higher, we get killed on install costs compared to other states. $4 plus per watt for LG or Solarworld is average. You really need to dig for the sub $4 price.

As for the OP, electric rates in MA are much higher than the a lot of the country. We just got hit with huge increase around 9 months ago where the average person is paying around 20 to 27 cents per KWH through National grid and Eversource. The price increase supposedly is related to the utility companies reliance on natural gas and how much they have to pay. Being at the bottom of the delivery hierarchy for natural gas, the utilities have to pay a lot more than residential communities do. That price includes both supply and delivery of electric. I am paying .13999 cents per kwh for supply and another 10 for delivery. We also get charged additional amounts that cover energy efficiency programs (called Mass Saves) and a charge for the solar net metering costs the utilities have to absorb (it's why they hate net metering) NG rates for supply are actually higher (I chose my own supplier through a green company). It's insane here.

The cap on net metering is one of the most confusing things in MA. Yes, there is a cap. But yes, you MAY be able to get approval for net metering to be in effect with bigger systems. The utilities don't want people being net sellers so a review has to happen before they will hook your system up. What I am hearing right now is that a lot of people are not getting approved for net metering if they go much higher than 10k. The system I am installing is about 10.2K and my installer says that won't be an issue. Much higher than that and you have to wait to be reviewed before anything gets hooked up. But it really is taking a chance if you go bigger. Giving up net metering....ugh....in MA, you will get screwed on the price!

[Alchete]

The MA net metering rules also vary by town, especially if you have a town-provided utility, such as Norwood and a few others. Those towns do not run a meter backwards, but rather require a second meter to measure your production and pay you differently.

In any event, you can review the state regulations here: http://www.mass.gov/eea/grants-and-t...-metering.html

[mpkelley20]

The MA net metering rules also vary by town, especially if you have a town-provided utility, such as Norwood and a few others. Those towns do not run a meter backwards, but rather require a second meter to measure your production and pay you differently.

In any event, you can review the state regulations here: http://www.mass.gov/eea/grants-and-t...-metering.html

I believe the rules vary by provider, not town. Eversource has higher caps than NG. I have friends that live in areas that get their electric from town based/non profit entities where going solar is frankly not going to cut costs fro them since their rates are about half of what NG and Eversource charge (my buddy lives in Lakeville and pays 11 cents all in vs my 24 cents).

Maybe I am wrong but every installer I spoke to said it was based on electric provider, not town.

[RMD]

On the contrary, electric heat is nearly 100% efficient. It's just outrageously expensive with today's electric rates.

True, but efficiency is a misleading metric in this scenario. Yes, 1 watt of input equals roughly 1 watt of output (which equates to about 3.41 BTUs an hour) for electric resistance heating - but, as you pointed out, the cost of that input watt matters a lot. As I'm not "burning watts" using oil or propane, and as the cost to produce that BTU is less than half what the cost of that watt is from the power company, I'd be far better off using oil or propane despite it being less efficient. (That said, a propane furnace can approach 95% efficiency - although a lot of that is lost in duct leakage and heat attenuation.)

But even with a pure-electric heating system, resistance heating is not the most efficient way to generate BTUs! Indeed, a modern, air-sourced mini-split heat pump (like this one http://www.fujitsugeneral.com/wallmountedRLS3H.htm) can produce 4x+ the BTUs per watt as electrical resistance as long as the temp doesn't drop below -13F.

For example, the above model has a SEER of 33 and a COP of 4.1. The cost to run that heat pump full blast for 30 days and produce 22k BTUs of output would be about $186 and it would consume about 1,129 Kwh. To have the same output from an electrical resistance based heater would require 4,645 KwH and cost $766! This assumes the temperate stays above -13 F (which in my region, is almost all the time). So there ya go - despite the fact the electric baseboard is "100% efficient", the mini-split can use less than 25% of the electricity to produce the same heat.

[Alchete]

I believe the rules vary by provider, not town. Eversource has higher caps than NG. I have friends that live in areas that get their electric from town based/non profit entities where going solar is frankly not going to cut costs fro them since their rates are about half of what NG and Eversource charge (my buddy lives in Lakeville and pays 11 cents all in vs my 24 cents).

Maybe I am wrong but every installer I spoke to said it was based on electric provider, not town.

Yes, they do vary by provider, not necessarily by town. I didn't say that as clearly as I should have.

[jflorey2]

True, although I'm hoping to cut usage a substantial amount. The current owners seem to rely mostly on electric resistance heat almost entirely. As you can see from my numbers before, winter time usage accounts for about 75% of total consumption. That's the thing I need to attack.

You might want to consider solar thermal. An evacuated-tube collector will work even in fairly cold conditions, and storing the heat in a central structure (central brick fireplace? even a central water tank) would allow for a significant amount of forced-air heat via a heat exchanger. This won't replace the resistance heat but will significantly reduce the need for it.

[Carl_NH]

Little/no attic space. (It's cape style.) Yes, it may be cheaper short term to add a propane or oil furnace + ducting, but with incentives, long term it likely won't.

RMD,

Our main house is 2900SF Cape on partial slab and crawl space due to big ledge - a boulder underneath the house in the crawl space is 20' across. We did an entire remodel in 96 and insulated R19 walls and floors with batts and board under the crawl area, R38 ceilings upstairs (cathedral). We were using 900 gal oil FHW until we installed a 90% eff Buderus boiler in 09 that cut the oil to 520 gal.

So, it sounds like you have 4600SF spread out over several additions which is hard to heat effectively/efficiently even with mini splits.

Are you still "deciding" to purchase this house if so, then make an offer with adding alternate heating sources as a main reason for the reduction in the listing price - if you can get $15 or 20K off based on the cost of heating then that could go to improving the building envelope.

[RMD]

RMD,

Our main house is 2900SF Cape on partial slab and crawl space due to big ledge - a boulder underneath the house in the crawl space is 20' across. We did an entire remodel in 96 and insulated R19 walls and floors with batts and board under the crawl area, R38 ceilings upstairs (cathedral). We were using 900 gal oil FHW until we installed a 90% eff Buderus boiler in 09 that cut the oil to 520 gal.

So, it sounds like you have 4600SF spread out over several additions which is hard to heat effectively/efficiently even with mini splits.

Are you still "deciding" to purchase this house if so, then make an offer with adding alternate heating sources as a main reason for the reduction in the listing price - if you can get $15 or 20K off based on the cost of heating then that could go to improving the building envelope.

Yes. We haven't made an offer yet. Is $15-20k really going to be enough? Given the total lack of ducts or water piping for baseboards? How long did your renovations take? Could you live in the house while it was happening?

Alas, it may be our only option. A solar company informed me today that the property is a poor candidate for PV due to lots of shading. We will probably have then do a site visit to confirm, but the guys back of the envelop calculation suggested only 6-8Kw production with the good roof space. I'd probably do that anyway, but it was disappointing.

[Carl_NH]

Yes. We haven't made an offer yet. Is $15-20k really going to be enough? Given the total lack of ducts or water piping for baseboards? How long did your renovations take? Could you live in the house while it was happening?

Alas, it may be our only option. A solar company informed me today that the property is a poor candidate for PV due to lots of shading. We will probably have then do a site visit to confirm, but the guys back of the envelop calculation suggested only 6-8Kw production with the good roof space. I'd probably do that anyway, but it was disappointing.

A high efficiency oil boiler using FHW replacement is $9K, for a whole new install with piping probably double that. Ground source heat pumps probably $30K and this requires ducting and you can get your domestic hot water from these too, but plan on digging up a large portion of the yard, and with ledge that could be a big challenge.

We did live in the house but took the roof off and put a whole new roof on upstairs while living down, then tore out the ceilings and did the downstairs. everything was stripped to the studs - we replaced all the wiring and most of the piping for the hot water heating too.

Too bad about your solar generation potential - have you used PVwatts? Would suggest playing with this, and also the solar vendors have a shade tool called Suneye that accurately predicts the shading. Shading in our case was calculated at 28% mostly Nov-Feb, but we plan to cut offending pine trees as they are on our land.

Your situation is not looking stellar for alternate energy without spending a lot of $. With moderate solar potential, no basement to install a furnace (maybe a closet),and limited options for ducting, and FHW systems with all the piping will be a challenge.

Your best choice if you are set on this house would be to do tightening and insulation the first year, then two or three new mini spits and the 8KW of Solar the second year.

Best of Luck!

[RMD]

A high efficiency oil boiler using FHW replacement is $9K, for a whole new install with piping probably double that. Ground source heat pumps probably $30K and this requires ducting and you can get your domestic hot water from these too, but plan on digging up a large portion of the yard, and with ledge that could be a big challenge.

We did live in the house but took the roof off and put a whole new roof on upstairs while living down, then tore out the ceilings and did the downstairs. everything was stripped to the studs - we replaced all the wiring and most of the piping for the hot water heating too.

Too bad about your solar generation potential - have you used PVwatts? Would suggest playing with this, and also the solar vendors have a shade tool called Suneye that accurately predicts the shading. Shading in our case was calculated at 28% mostly Nov-Feb, but we plan to cut offending pine trees as they are on our land.

Your situation is not looking stellar for alternate energy without spending a lot of $. With moderate solar potential, no basement to install a furnace (maybe a closet),and limited options for ducting, and FHW systems with all the piping will be a challenge.

Your best choice if you are set on this house would be to do tightening and insulation the first year, then two or three new mini spits and the 8KW of Solar the second year.

Best of Luck!

Thanks for the advice. The geothermal option is something I really like the idea of, but again, without existing ducts/piping, I'm still left with the problem of getting the heat to the various rooms in the house. The home has 4.5 acres of land, and only maybe 1.5 acres of that (where the house is physically located) is on the rock ledge. The rest is actually open fields. The only iffy thing is it's very close to wetlands, and the ground is likely water logged. Not sure if that matters - aside from the environment regulations I'll have to deal with.

[thejq]

Thanks for the advice. The geothermal option is something I really like the idea of, but again, without existing ducts/piping, I'm still left with the problem of getting the heat to the various rooms in the house. The home has 4.5 acres of land, and only maybe 1.5 acres of that (where the house is physically located) is on the rock ledge. The rest is actually open fields. The only iffy thing is it's very close to wetlands, and the ground is likely water logged. Not sure if that matters - aside from the environment regulations I'll have to deal with.

Maybe a long shot, but have you considered individual heat pumps for individual area(s). For example http://www.frys.com/product/8080414 can function as AC or heat pump which is more energy efficient than resistive heating elements. That particular one also has dual exhausts so it doesn't suck air from the room. If you install a few of them throughout your house, you can potentially turn down the base board heating, and use the heat pump to create localized comfort zones. As a bonus, in the summer, they work as ACs and/or dehumidifiers. The down side is that it requires window access and maybe an eye sore.

[RMD]

Maybe a long shot, but have you considered individual heat pumps for individual area(s). For example http://www.frys.com/product/8080414 can function as AC or heat pump which is more energy efficient than resistive heating elements. That particular one also has dual exhausts so it doesn't suck air from the room. If you install a few of them throughout your house, you can potentially turn down the base board heating, and use the heat pump to create localized comfort zones. As a bonus, in the summer, they work as ACs and/or dehumidifiers. The down side is that it requires window access and maybe an eye sore.

I'd probably go with a Fujitsu RLS3h mini-split. They're much more expensive, but less intrusive into the same as they're wall mounted. They also work better at low temperatures. The home has 5 older Fujitsu mini-splits right now, but they cover only perhaps half the house - and because they're older models, their COP drops to less than 2 once you get down to the average winter temps in Jan/Feb around Boston.

Upgrading (and likely added 2 more) mini-splits to cover everything but the bathrooms / laundry room in the house *should* shave off as much as 20-30% of the electric bill. If I can add some insulation (particularly to the exposed foundation walls), that should save another 10%. Add that 19Kw solar array, and we're down another 30-40%. So for only $120k, I can have the luxury of not paying that massive electrical bill.

[emartin00]

Thanks for the advice. The geothermal option is something I really like the idea of, but again, without existing ducts/piping, I'm still left with the problem of getting the heat to the various rooms in the house. The home has 4.5 acres of land, and only maybe 1.5 acres of that (where the house is physically located) is on the rock ledge. The rest is actually open fields. The only iffy thing is it's very close to wetlands, and the ground is likely water logged. Not sure if that matters - aside from the environment regulations I'll have to deal with.

Water logged is actually better. The wetter the soil is, the more heat transfer you get. As long as you are below the frost line that is.

I'd probably go with a Fujitsu RLS3h mini-split. They're much more expensive, but less intrusive into the same as they're wall mounted. They also work better at low temperatures. The home has 5 older Fujitsu mini-splits right now, but they cover only perhaps half the house - and because they're older models, their COP drops to less than 2 once you get down to the average winter temps in Jan/Feb around Boston.

Upgrading (and likely added 2 more) mini-splits to cover everything but the bathrooms / laundry room in the house *should* shave off as much as 20-30% of the electric bill. If I can add some insulation (particularly to the exposed foundation walls), that should save another 10%. Add that 19Kw solar array, and we're down another 30-40%. So for only $120k, I can have the luxury of not paying that massive electrical bill.

Fujitsu makes some nice units. I know a number of people who use them. I have a Mitsubishi HyperHeat unit on my first floor. It does a great job heating the 1000sqft first floor until the temps drop into the sing digits. At that point the farther rooms are a bit on the cool side. But that is a single 18k BTU unit. If I had 3 smaller heads off of the same compressor, it would probably work better.