My Solar System for Home

[J.P.M.]

i think you are starting in the middle. Before you even look at equipment you need to do some research and planning. It is highly unlikely you will be able to reduce your usage by 30% unless you are really ready for a massive lifestyle change or significant energy improvements (ie investments) in your current abode. Let's start from the beginning..... 1. Does your poco participate in "net metering" or "net billing"? The answer here will definitely affect your design. You are in ca so i assume you have a "net meter" situation, thus you do not want to over build. 2. Ground mount or roof mount? Distance requires voltage loss calculations. 3. Micro-inverters or string inverters? Shade issues? Many, many, many pros and cons of each inverter route. I personally do not like a single inverter design...at least two is required so that any string or inverter problems are immediately observed by the fact of comparison. 4. Cramped for space.....or not....maybe you do not need the latest and greatest panel design. Significant cost reduction. 5. Panel upgrade needed? If you do not know what this means then you need to talk to a qualified electrician. 6. Now and only now should you start detail design. Yes...it is more complicated than you thought........... Stop looking at equipment and start looking at design.

fwiw, +1.

[bcroe]

I'm planning on reducing my electricity usage to 15kWh ~ 18kWh per day.

Chasing down wasted energy can save a lot. I managed to cut electric use 2200 KWH
a year just by reworking inefficient equipment; no life style changes at all. It can be a
big project, finding and fixing a hundred small parasite loads. Bruce Roe

[john95]

I think you are starting in the middle. Before you even look at equipment you need to do some research and planning..

It seems to me that I need a Solar Engineering Degree to connect a few Solar Panels to my house just to save a few bucks?

It is highly unlikely you will be able to reduce your usage by 30% unless you are really ready for a massive lifestyle change or significant energy improvements (ie investments) in your current abode.

I'm sure I can do it. The 35kWh per day usage is only for 3 months during the summer. Even with my current usage I have not paid over $240 a month which is not much for lighting, refrigerators, cooling the house, charging the EV Mon - Fri and occasionally use of handy man tools (air compressor, drills, electric soldering, etc.)

Let's start from the beginning.....
1. Does your POCO participate in "net metering" or "net billing"? The answer here will definitely affect your design. You are in CA so I assume you have a "net meter" situation, thus you do not want to over build.

I get my electricity from S. C. Edison Co. I guess I have that. I have a friend who has a grid tie system but he does know anything about it. He is paying about $25k ~ $30K about 8kWh per day judging from his use, he has only a few lights and a refrigerator.

2. Ground mount or roof mount? Distance requires voltage loss calculations.

Ground mount, roof mount or both, don't know yet. I may install one for my garage tools, lights, stereo, etc.

3. Micro-inverters or string inverters? Shade issues? Many, many, many pros and cons of each inverter route. I personally do not like a single inverter design...at least two is required so that any string or inverter problems are immediately observed by the fact of comparison.

If I'm going to think of every single variant then I rather stay with the utility company and be free of any worry.

4. Cramped for space.....or not....maybe you do not need the latest and greatest panel design. Significant cost reduction.

I just need to connect the solar panels to the house as simple as possible, I don't need to track every milliwatt that comes in or out of the house. There has to be a simple way.

5. Panel upgrade needed? If you do not know what this means then you need to talk to a qualified electrician.

I am an electrician. I'm a network computer engineer, I'm an audio engineer, I'm a musician, I'm an electronics engineer, I do construction work, framing, roofing, I'm a auto mechanic, I'm a veterinarian, I'm a agronomy engineer I use to work with people who grow coffee, corn, rice, tobacco, vegetables, cardamom and also I'm an attorney who does Estate Planning documents (Wills, Living Trusts, Family Trusts, Advance Health Care Directives, Special Power of Attorney, Prenuptial Agreements, Property Agreements, etc.) I also speak Italian, Portuguese, Spanish and English. Basically I can do anything. Do you think that I am competent enough to connect a few solar panels to my house? Do you think that I'm afraid to work with 240v AC? I use to deal with 40 ~ 60 thousand volts that would kill a blue whale in a millisecond.

6. Now and only now should you start detail design. Yes...it is more complicated than you thought........... Stop looking at equipment and start looking at design.

I think you guys make it so complicated though. And you charge how much for solar advice?
Anyways, I don't think the city is going to allow me to do things my way. Unfortunately, the most complex thing is dealing with people. This was the reason I wanted to go "off grid".
I'll try to copy my friend's solar system and I'll design my own system for my needs. But I'm calculating that even spending $8K right now on equipment plus my labor is still more expensive that what I'm paying now to the utility company. I already did calculations a few years ago and did not make any sense then. Thanks for you suggestions

[john95]

Chasing down wasted energy can save a lot. I managed to cut electric use 2200 KWH
a year just by reworking inefficient equipment; no life style changes at all. It can be a
big project, finding and fixing a hundred small parasite loads. Bruce Roe

Saving energy or resources has very different meanings for many people.
I have a neighbor that goes to sleep at 7:00pm so he does not have use lights. He only have a few lights, a refrigerator and a 32" LED TV. He cuts his grass by a hand mower.
He does not flush the toilet at night until the morning and take about 2 showers a week. He saves water. He never buys new stuff. The salvation army is his mall, he pays $0.50 for a pair of used pants. I could go on and on. I cannot believe we still have these kind of people in America today.
Saving for me, will be spending no more than $200 a month in electricity, I use to pay $50 a month, but no Air conditioning, no EV charging and no 4 x tvs running 3 for a few hours a day and 1 24 hrs. a day.

[J.P.M.]

It seems to me that I need a Solar Engineering Degree to connect a few Solar Panels to my house just to save a few bucks? I'm sure I can do it. The 35kWh per day usage is only for 3 months during the summer. Even with my current usage I have not paid over $240 a month which is not much for lighting, refrigerators, cooling the house, charging the EV Mon - Fri and occasionally use of handy man tools (air compressor, drills, electric soldering, etc.) I get my electricity from S. C. Edison Co. I guess I have that. I have a friend who has a grid tie system but he does know anything about it. He is paying about $25k ~ $30K about 8kWh per day judging from his use, he has only a few lights and a refrigerator. Ground mount, roof mount or both, don't know yet. I may install one for my garage tools, lights, stereo, etc. If I'm going to think of every single variant then I rather stay with the utility company and be free of any worry. I just need to connect the solar panels to the house as simple as possible, I don't need to track every milliwatt that comes in or out of the house. There has to be a simple way. I am an electrician. I'm a network computer engineer, I'm an audio engineer, I'm a musician, I'm an electronics engineer, I do construction work, framing, roofing, I'm a auto mechanic, I'm a veterinarian, I'm a agronomy engineer I use to work with people who grow coffee, corn, rice, tobacco, vegetables, cardamom and also I'm an attorney who does Estate Planning documents (Wills, Living Trusts, Family Trusts, Advance Health Care Directives, Special Power of Attorney, Prenuptial Agreements, Property Agreements, etc.) I also speak Italian, Portuguese, Spanish and English. Basically I can do anything. Do you think that I am competent enough to connect a few solar panels to my house? Do you think that I'm afraid to work with 240v AC? I use to deal with 40 ~ 60 thousand volts that would kill a blue whale in a millisecond. I think you guys make it so complicated though. And you charge how much for solar advice? Anyways, I don't think the city is going to allow me to do things my way. Unfortunately, the most complex thing is dealing with people. This was the reason I wanted to go "off grid". I'll try to copy my friend's solar system and I'll design my own system for my needs. But I'm calculating that even spending $8K right now on equipment plus my labor is still more expensive that what I'm paying now to the utility company. I already did calculations a few years ago and did not make any sense then. Thanks for you suggestions

For my part, you're most welcome. If I had known your were so accomplished and cosmopolitan and a renaissance person, I'd have not wasted your time with a response. All the best in your future endeavors. J.P.M.

[bcroe]

Saving energy or resources has very different meanings for many people.
I have a neighbor that goes to sleep at 7:00pm so he does not have use lights. He only have a few lights, a refrigerator and a 32" LED TV. He cuts his grass by a hand mower.
He does not flush the toilet at night until the morning and take about 2 showers a week. He saves water. He never buys new stuff. The salvation army is his mall, he pays $0.50 for a pair of used pants. I could go on and on. I cannot believe we still have these kind of people in America today.
Saving for me, will be spending no more than $200 a month in electricity, I use to pay $50 a month, but no Air conditioning, no EV charging and no 4 x tvs running 3 for a few hours a day and 1 24 hrs. a day.

If you are an electrician and an electronics engineer, solar may require a LOT of planning,
but shouldn't appear to be rocket science.

1. A PV system using batteries could give total control, but requires much maintenance
with a BIG multiplier in costs. A grid tie system allows me to use the PoCo as a free,
infinite capacity, 100% efficient, no maintenance battery, and GTI maintenance is at a
very low level. But it requires a PoCo contract.

2. The quickest route to savings is conservation. That means spending effort determining
just where energy is consumed. Find outright waste and design it out; Energy Star
appliances are your friends. You may elect for EV and other life style changes; things
can be automatically turned off when no one is using them. A late design heat pump
with buried heat exchanger can hugely cut usage.

3. Once needs are established, an appropriate solar system can be planned. You have a
lot more control when it is ground mounted. My electric energy and propane house
heating/cooling bills have been zero for a while, and unlike your friend, i made no life
style changes.

4. I hired an experienced turnkey system installer to get through the regulations. In fact
I arranged to do a lot of the work myself, and actually did even more. How much you
can do will depend on how tightly things are regulated; I chose living in the "Wild West",
far from any coastline state.

5. If you want to try some PV right away, buy something and try it out. You will learn a
lot but may decide to replace it later.
Bruce Roe

[sdold]

Hi John. Two years ago, I didn't know much about solar and thought it would be fun to put something on the house. After a year of learning, I installed a city-permitted, power-company approved grid-tie system on the roof that cost about $8,000 in parts, fees, tax, and shipping, and a third of that was recovered with the federal tax credit. It just finished its first year of operation and while the previous two years' power cost was $1,200, this year was $0. It's a pretty good feeling My point is that it doesn't take a "Solar Engineering Degree" or any degree, really. It is do-able by someone with average skills and the right attitude.

I usually encourage others who want to do this if they have a willingness and interest to learn everything they can about it and work within the system. That includes learning building and electrical codes, picking equipment that makes the most sense (microinverters vs. a string inverter, for example) and a general interest in "doing it right for doing it right's sake". This means a willingness and desire to not cut corners to save money or time.

As I read your posts, especially your response to the small (but important) bit of advice about the service panel, I'm thinking that every aspect of the job that was an interesting challenge to me will be a frustrating obstacle for you. I don't think you will enjoy this project and I don't think you should do it. I think you should get several quotes for a grid-tie system and ask for advice here along the way, and then relax and watch the installation happen.

[john95]

For my part, you're most welcome. If I had known your were so accomplished and cosmopolitan and a renaissance person, I'd have not wasted your time with a response. All the best in your future endeavors. J.P.M.

Not at all! You have not wasted my time nor I intended to waste yours. All the contrary, I think that you must be an authority on solar energy and I applaud you for that. I did not have much interest on solar energy until I got my 100% electric car. The idea of driving every day without spending a drop of gasoline is brilliant to me and in top of that having energy from the sun for free or close to free is even the greatest thing that could happen to human kind. Imagine becoming free from oil and utility companies?
I have a vision to design a solar farm where neighborhoods could have the ability to harvest electricity for free just like we have been able to cultivate corn, rice, beans, cattle, etc. in the pass and share the benefits. Perhaps it sounds socialistic but if a group of people participate in the farming of solar electricity we all should share the benefits for free or close to free.
We all have opinions and I love to hear and share mine with others. I really appreciate your input though.

[john95]

If you are an electrician and an electronics engineer, solar may require a LOT of planning,
but shouldn't appear to be rocket science.

1. A PV system using batteries could give total control, but requires much maintenance
with a BIG multiplier in costs. A grid tie system allows me to use the PoCo as a free,
infinite capacity, 100% efficient, no maintenance battery, and GTI maintenance is at a
very low level. But it requires a PoCo contract.

2. The quickest route to savings is conservation. That means spending effort determining
just where energy is consumed. Find outright waste and design it out; Energy Star
appliances are your friends. You may elect for EV and other life style changes; things
can be automatically turned off when no one is using them. A late design heat pump
with buried heat exchanger can hugely cut usage.

3. Once needs are established, an appropriate solar system can be planned. You have a
lot more control when it is ground mounted. My electric energy and propane house
heating/cooling bills have been zero for a while, and unlike your friend, i made no life
style changes.

4. I hired an experienced turnkey system installer to get through the regulations. In fact
I arranged to do a lot of the work myself, and actually did even more. How much you
can do will depend on how tightly things are regulated; I chose living in the "Wild West",
far from any coastline state.

5. If you want to try some PV right away, buy something and try it out. You will learn a
lot but may decide to replace it later.
Bruce Roe

Thanks for your comments though.
I like how you number your comments by the way. May you or someone else here, list detailed steps on how to go solar on grid tie and off grid? What about first talk to the parties involved? like:

1-) Talk to the Fire Insurance company to see if they even cover a fire, do they increase price policy because there are more risk of a fire, etc.
2-) Talk to the utility company to see what are my options? What does their small print says really?
3-) Talk to the city about their permits, inspections, money, etc.
4-) What are my liabilities as a home owner?

In another, words who gets pieces of the cake before I even connect the solar system.

I may have $0 usage but what if I get a fire and the fire insurance does not pay? I'm sure they will fine ways not to pay blaming the fire on the license contractor who installed the solar system or simply invent an excuse not to pay. I know how insurances work. They may say to you: Yes, Mr. Joe, we will conduct an investigation on your fire and you will be contacted to see if you are covered or not. Time to get a lawyer, and here it goes perhaps years for you to recover from that unlucky fire.

[john95]

Hi John. Two years ago, I didn't know much about solar and thought it would be fun to put something on the house. After a year of learning, I installed a city-permitted, power-company approved grid-tie system on the roof that cost about $8,000 in parts, fees, tax, and shipping, and a third of that was recovered with the federal tax credit. It just finished its first year of operation and while the previous two years' power cost was $1,200, this year was $0. It's a pretty good feeling My point is that it doesn't take a "Solar Engineering Degree" or any degree, really. It is do-able by someone with average skills and the right attitude.

I usually encourage others who want to do this if they have a willingness and interest to learn everything they can about it and work within the system. That includes learning building and electrical codes, picking equipment that makes the most sense (microinverters vs. a string inverter, for example) and a general interest in "doing it right for doing it right's sake". This means a willingness and desire to not cut corners to save money or time.

As I read your posts, especially your response to the small (but important) bit of advice about the service panel, I'm thinking that every aspect of the job that was an interesting challenge to me will be a frustrating obstacle for you. I don't think you will enjoy this project and I don't think you should do it. I think you should get several quotes for a grid-tie system and ask for advice here along the way, and then relax and watch the installation happen.

Good for you! I love your positive experience. I love challenge, I like troubleshooting things. Obstacles are great!
If something cannot be done it is just because you have been disabled by some else already doing it.
I guess I want to do this project just for fun. Imaging charging my EV directly from solar panels? What family and friends are going to be saying about me?
What about instead of installing 12 x 300v 24v poly panels I go for 20? I'll get 20 x 300 = 6kWh per hr. x 6hrs of sun light = 36kWh a day. about $10K, down to $3,333 with incentives, $92 for 36 months, $0 on my 4th year of usage.
How do you pay $0 dollars in your third year of usage? If you paid a third of your $8,000 expense, that is $ 2,666 / 36 months that is $74.00 a month. Would not you pay $0 until your 4th year?

[sdold]

What family and friends are going to be saying about me?

Probably the same kinds of things they are saying about you now.

How do you pay $0 dollars in your third year of usage?

I installed the system just over one year ago, and in that year it generated slightly more than I used, so I bought no electricity. I mentioned the two previous years for reference only, they were both about $1,200 in power cost.

Your installers will use grid tie panels which run at around 30V each, not "24V" panels.

[bcroe]

what if I get a fire and the fire insurance does not pay?

One big reason for my array being ground mounted, and the inverters being in a metal
out building, is to keep the risk of something burning away from my house. Bruce Roe

[john95]

Probably the same kinds of things they are saying about you now.

I installed the system just over one year ago, and in that year it generated slightly more than I used, so I bought no electricity. I mentioned the two previous years for reference only, they were both about $1,200 in power cost.

Your installers will use grid tie panels which run at around 30V each, not "24V" panels.

OK. Looks good to me. As long as you are happy, that's all it matters.

[john95]

One big reason for my array being ground mounted, and the inverters being in a metal
out building, is to keep the risk of something burning away from my house. Bruce Roe

I'm thinking on going ground mounted, it makes more sense for replacement, maintenance, fire risk, etc.

[john95]

A friend of mine is telling me that all I need is a good certified array of solar panels (about 10) and a certified city approved inverter (Sunny Boy 4000TL-US-22) Not even $5K total. He says that there are a lot of scams about solar, charging $25k ~ $35K systems. Very interesting talk.