Solar Edge Vs Enphase Power optimizers

[kinetoplast1973]

Would like to hear some good opinions about invertors?

Solar Edge-
Pros:
Cost:
Durability: (no scientific data to back it up; some post(s) saying there are no failures reported)

Cons-
If any, Would like to hear them.....

Enphase:

Pros:
New and Better technology (not sure...)
Modular (adding panels is relatively easy) Is it really?

Cons:
Cost (more expensive) Is it worth additional cost?

Reliability (high failure rates for first generation). The first generation really seems to have soured people's opinion about MI. If MI fail at year 15, would the warranty not cover it? We might even have series XX (even better technology) by that time. I have been told that warranty covers replacement cost.

Finally, Is there any consensus in the community about which invertor (EN vs optimizer) to choose based on a particular situation? or we let our installer decide based on his experience about the choice of invertor.

[Naptown]

Read the warranty documents on both the Enphase and solar edge.
Enphase paid for labor on the M 190 but stopped when the 215 came out.
We have had many many failures on the 190 not sure on the 215 and 250.
0 failures so far on any solar edge.

My biggest fear with enphase is the company has failed to make a profit in its entire life.

Solar edge is now publicly traded so I would take a look at their financials too

[sdold]

I go back and forth on this, Today I'm pro-enphase because:

1. I can't find any evidence that the M215 or M250 is less reliable than the optimizer, so I assume they are about the same. I'm interested in any data available if anyone knows of any, since I and several friends have M215 systems.

2. If Solar Edge and Enphase are gone in ten years (or two ), I'm betting it will be a lot easier to get some other brand of microinverter than a replacement Solaredge optimizer.

3. I like the simple wiring of an Enphase system.

4. I forgot what number 4 was. Oh, it was that if I have the choice of a device under every panel PLUS a big thing on the side of the house, or just a device under every panel, I'd go with the latter. I know Microinverters have more parts and maybe electrolytic caps, but unless I see failure rate numbers, it's all arm-waving to me.

I might change my mind tomorrow though.

[Naptown]

Here is my thoughts on this debate

You buy Enphase or optimizer and a component fails.
Now it is 15 years down the road and all your panels are fine but you have a micro or optomizer that has gone bad
and the manufacturer is no longer around.
Well the reality is that those systems contain a lot of proprietary components that will probably not be available or technology has surpassed them and have been replaced.
If there is no need for micro or optomizers I vote for a straight string inverter. If my 7.6 Fromius dies and they are no longer available any 7.6 will work. String inverters are generic and will work with just about any configuration.
I will not use Enphase. Burned too many times.
Solar edge has not been a problem but time will tell
If there are no shading issues then you are wasting your money and creating a potentially bigger problem in the future.
The only advantages these type of systems offer is increased production in partially shaded situations and a perhaps better monitoring. ( you will know which micro failed that is no longer available)

[solarix]

I'm with Naptown. Unless you have a serious shading problem, the risk of reliability problems with roof mounted electronics is not worth it. I've always mistrusted Enphase and SolarEdge really burned me when I put in a lot of the early ones and had a huge (30%) failure rate. The redesigned version has been good (so far).
I just don't think there is any way a startup company can get the design of something like an inverter long term reliable right away.

[Naptown]

What was the failure rate on
Enphase or solar edge

[solarix]

I think I was the first to use SolarEdge in Arizona because I loved their system architecture, but was rewarded with a lot of failures ranging from exploded inverters to plenty of failed optimizers on their early design. When I discovered the plastic used on the optimizer MC4 connectors literally disintegrating even when not exposed to direct sunlight, I pulled the plug. I have used a them a couple times since they redesigned everything and so far so good on those, but lost a lot of faith in that company and know they had a big shakeup and lost a lot of people. Now that we have string inverters with dual MPPT inputs, a lot of the reasons for using a distributed design go away but when the rooftop shutdown code goes into effect, they will be hard to beat.

[sdold]

Well the reality is that those systems contain a lot of proprietary components that will probably not be available or technology has surpassed them and have been replaced.

Panels with other types of inverters, including microinverters, can be added to an Enphase system, but I agree with everything else. I agree that an array with no shading would be better off with a string inverter, but the OP seemed only interested in comparing Microinverters with Optimizers.

[sensij]

I chose SolarEdge because I like the technology. I'm happy with my choice, but I've got to admit, Enphase's monitoring and reporting system is much, much better.

[donald]

Solaredge stock is doing much better than enphase. I assume this is, in part, due to Enphase's incompatibility with good battery design. Enphase sure seems to sell a lot of product, however. Installers must like it.
I agree with what is said above about keeping it simple with a string inverter, if possible. A solaredge system with optimizers is more expensive, but the rooftop devices are half the cost. Buying one or two spare optimizers is not much money.

[scarp]

ButchDeal.... We have nearly 30 locations nationwide. I can only speak to what I have seen at my location. At this location, we have been selling 10,000+ a year for the last 5 years. So, let's conservatively put that number at 50,000 units, with probably 5 failures for our location. Now, the thing about micros is that if one fails, many times a home owner is not even aware of it, unless they are constantly watching power production. Since the other 15-30 micros that are installed are still producing, they see little drop in system output (maybe 3-5%). So, if one goes out, it often is not urgent that an installer come out and replace it. They can go out when they do their scheduled maintenance and swap it out. Now, if a string inverter fails, it is a huge issue, as all production stops immediately, and the homeowner will definitely see the issue immediately.

By the way, I have no reason to fudge numbers. I sell micros, Solar Edge, and string inverters. I leave it up to the installer to tell me what they want, not the other way around. If he wants a string inverter, a string inverter he will get. I do not try to upsell, or change an installers mind. To me, a happy customer is the best customer. Will I let them know of new products available? Sure. That is what good salespeople do. If it makes sense to them, they will buy, If not, they will continue with what they are currently doing.

[ButchDeal]

I am not claiming that you are fudging numbers, but rather you are not in the loop as a distributor. your numbers reflect that. I work for and am a founder in and review all installs for a national market place. We primarily install SolarEdge but we also install string and micros. Distributors wouldn't be involved in failures. We have less than your are claiming in installed equipment so far but higher failure rates, primarily DOAs. Your count of 50k units with less than 5 failures doesn't seem to match ours or any of our installers, or general community, or even the manufacture failure rates.

SolarEdge flags failures immediately (well by default after 24 hours). Our company grants full view access to customers and monitors these failures. Most homeowners will not notice a string or micro or solaredge till the next bill. We do though. Granted this is a lot of weed eating work as often the failures are snow WiFi related but they are pretty easy to see, with SolarEdge at least (it puts the local weather report right on the page and you can graph temperature along with output.).
We also get them all to pvoutput so the customer can see easily there as well as the communities they purchased through (pvoutput teams).

[scarp]

I am not out of the loop as you may think. A GOOD distributor SHOULD be in the loop on failures, for a couple of reasons. First, a distributor wants to know of issues because they do not want to be providing an inferior item. Second, they want to take care of their installer, so that they installer can make their customer happy. The quicker they resolve issues, the less chance the customer will be unhappy with the installer, and the better chance for referrals from that customer. We are not the typical solar distributor that just funnels everything through the manufacturer's warranty. I am the first call my customers make when they have an issue, whether it is fresh out of the box, or 5 years from now. Why would they want to wait for the warranty process to unfold, if they have a distributor that will take care of the issue immediately?? As I said, they call me first because they know we will provide them a working unit the same day, rather than wait for the warranty process to unfold. But, I won't beat a dead horse...

[solarix]

As a dealer/installer, my basic objection to either Enphase or Solaredge is I absolutely do not want to get into a situation where I am getting a phone call every week that "another one of those rooftop electronic thingys has failed". If I have 200 customers out there with 20 Enphases each, that is 4000. A 1% per year failure rate - which sooner or later is going to happen, means almost one day a week my ass is going to be on someone's roof dismantling the array to get at the one that failed, and if it happens within the first ten years, I'm not getting paid for it except for the cost of the device itself. Using string inverters, I just have 200 failure points and if 5% of them die in a year that is no big deal. Reliability is the linchpin of the solar industry with PV panels that are warranted for 25 years and really last twice that long. Jeopardizing that with some fancy electronics is bad business.

[donald]

Why do so many installers quote enphase first?

[solarix]

Why do so many installers quote enphase first?

I'd really like to know that too. My guess at the answers are:
1) Many installers have little electronics background and overestimate the reliability of microinverters because they believe what the manufacturer says.
2) Installer think that microinverters are a "nice, simple solution" but they miss the Achilles heel involved.
3) Microinverters seem to be the "future of solar" - a "better, high-tech, internet connected" method.
4) Microinverters are a one size fits all solution and require less inventory. (This is true - but not a big deal)
5) Some installers that come from an electrical background are not familiar with (or are afraid of) wiring high-voltage DC power for string inverters.
6) Enphase, which has yet to turn a profit as a business, is buying its way into the market through warranties (that are really failure insurance) and installer incentives.
7) The public has accepted some or all of the above, and if you are buying soap, some installers will sell you soap.

[scarp]

I agree with you on the electronics failure issue. The more electronics you have, the more chance of failure. This is actually why I lean towards Solar Edge, in most instances. The optimizers have half as many components inside it as a microinverter, so in theory, should have fewer failures. Solar Edge's selling point is they are taking the best of both worlds, and giving you more flexibility in design than even micros give you. Solar Edge will allow up to 19 mods per string, which Enphase is usually limited at 16 mods. But, they do not put as many electronics on the roof as a micro would (Solar Edge is rated to 185 degrees Farenheit. Enphase is rated to 150 degrees Farenheit) Most of the electronics will be loacted in the Solar Edge inverter that will be mounted on a wall somewhere on the house. Also, Solar Edge gives you the ability to use multiple wattages of modules in the future if you add on to your system. As most installers know, modules are constantly increasing in wattage, and if your mods are more than 3 years old, you likely cannot get the same module, if you want to add on to a system, as it likely is obsolete. In addition, Solar Edge give better performance than Enphase in shading conditions. While I do like string inverters in certain applications, I think Solar Edge or Enphase offer some benefits that are very useful at getting better production out of a system.

[ButchDeal]

I'd really like to know that too. My guess at the answers are:
1) Many installers have little electronics background and overestimate the reliability of microinverters because they believe what the manufacturer says.
2) Installer think that microinverters are a "nice, simple solution" but they miss the Achilles heel involved.
3) Microinverters seem to be the "future of solar" - a "better, high-tech, internet connected" method.
4) Microinverters are a one size fits all solution and require less inventory. (This is true - but not a big deal)
5) Some installers that come from an electrical background are not familiar with (or are afraid of) wiring high-voltage DC power for string inverters.
6) Enphase, which has yet to turn a profit as a business, is buying its way into the market through warranties (that are really failure insurance) and installer incentives.
7) The public has accepted some or all of the above, and if you are buying soap, some installers will sell you soap.

4 & 5 mostly. As we are signing installers to our network nationally, we have had a few turn us down as they only want to install micros ( particular brand usually ) and are not familiar with any other method.

[sensij]

For SolarEdge specifically... these prices are less than 1 year old, but somewhat outdated...

For a 12 panel system (3 kW), local wholesale:

SMA SB3000TL-US-22 = $1266
SolarEdge (SE3000A + P300) : $1016 + 12 * $54 = $1664

Individual installers will mark equipment up differently, and there may be some additional labor for optimizers. Let's call the difference $500 post-incentive.

What does that post-incentive $500 buy?
1) Some higher production. Very few systems are truly shade free (just look at PVOutput data if you don't believe me), and the optimizers could outperform during those shaded periods. Other conditions in which SE will outperform... low clouds, non-uniform fouling, non-uniform panel degradation over time. I'm not saying these differences will add up to the price difference, but they do exist on paper, and there is not much independent data out there to quantify it.

2) Panel level energy reports make it easier to detect when shade does become a problem, and take action on it. Most people probably might not look at the reports with enough understanding to take advantage of this, though.

3) Better data accessibility. SMA data is stupidly difficult to share (and compare) on sites like PVOutput. A Raspberry PI or an always-on computer is required with a $200+ Webconnect card, or a $500+ Webbox takes care of it, either of which takes a big bite out of the price difference between systems. Fronius might be a better choice in this respect, and the new line of transformerless inverters seems to close the technical gaps that had existed on the IG Plus line.

For me, SolarEdge was an easy decision, especially since I don't assign much value to the SPS. I'm uncomfortable with the proprietary nature of their architecture, but see no reason to believe the failure rate is high enough to affect me over the economic life of the system.