switching from gas to electric hot water heater after solar?

[J.P.M.]

I wouldn't bet on that. There's nothing stopping them from raising all the associated charges by similar percentages and zero incentive not to. In SoCal there's no question rates are going to rise and a lot more than 10% total. The amount they can raise total charges will be capped on a yearly basis but I expect close to 10% increase per year for at least the next 5 years or so.

I don't doubt that what your comments and fears may happen. I'm much more cynical than most about such things. On the other hand, sometimes being too cynical without some educated guess(es) about causes and likely outcomes can cause problems. Sometimes legislative mandates get in the way. Sometimes required infrastructure maint./improvements are not well understood or received. Lots can happen for reasons I'm probably clueless about.

I've always been of the opinion, borne out by experience, that my first and most productive responses if I didn't like the price of something was to use less of it, or find alternatives that cost less. If nothing else, I get (the illusion of) some control over my situation.

In my experience, whining about the price of something and doing nothing usually doesn't get me much. But, opinions vary.

[lagator]

I don't doubt that what your comments and fears may happen. I'm much more cynical than most about such things. On the other hand, sometimes being too cynical without some educated guess(es) about causes and likely outcomes can cause problems. Sometimes legislative mandates get in the way. Sometimes required infrastructure maint./improvements are not well understood or received. Lots can happen for reasons I'm probably clueless about.

I've always been of the opinion, borne out by experience, that my first and most productive responses if I didn't like the price of something was to use less of it, or find alternatives that cost less. If nothing else, I get (the illusion of) some control over my situation.

In my experience, whining about the price of something and doing nothing usually doesn't get me much. But, opinions vary.

I doubt you're clueless about much. You seem level headed and thoughtful on all your posts I've read.

Maybe I'm a little jaded but my perception of state and local govt in California tells me corruption, kick backs and slush-funds spent exclusively on travel, wine and dining, personal perks like gasoline, home and office remodels, hookers, pretty much anything is the norm rather than the exception. And water bills are cheap, (equals untapped in politician, utility commissioner and union leader eyes) and drought is real, so it equals the perfect storm and obvious place for the next fee/tax mining.

Despite the surpluses utilities have run for decades here, infrastructure upkeep has been completely neglected with literally century old water mains rupturing almost weekly. There are going to be a lot of costs associated with bringing the system up to date and they can either spend the money they already collect for what it is actually intended for, or they can keep up the current practice and just collect more from the "consumer".

I am in fact preparing for what I expect to be excessive fee increases by taking out 2 large areas of grass replacing with decomposed granite, stone and mulch along with drip irrigation. If rates stay the same I still win by decreasing my current usage and help reduce waste at the same time.

[donald]

we should have our solar system up in a few months. As I'm doing my homework and thinking about how to eliminate my utility bills, the only thing left is the hot water heater. Is it worth it to up the size of my system and swap out my hot water heater?

This would mean I should have 0 gas bill during the warmer months when we're not using the furnace

Electric hot waters heater are lower BTU too. Recovery is very slow. No one uses them that has gas in the house.

Solar hot water is great, especially in non-freezing climates. It the original practical home solar project. Although it is most desirable in homes without natural gas.

I see others have made the point that national electric rate trends don't mean anything. Although the aggregate national trend is up in this decade.

[Sunking]

California is a great place to be FROM IMHO.

Highest State Income Taxes at 13.3 %
#4 Highest Home Cost
#6 Highest Electric Rates
#4 Highest Gasoline Tax
#8 Highest Property Taxes
#9 Highest Water rates

The good news is when you combine taxes and energy cost Hawaii has you beat, and that is because they are even more Left, I mean West of the left coast of California.

I love not having to pay any federal, state, local, and property taxes, almost free water, dirt cheap energy, and very low cost of living down here Well gas is kind of high down here, but with a NEV and everything with in 4 miles makes gasoline a moot point. Bus runs every 45 minute to David and only cost $1 round trip.

[lagator]

California is a great place to be FROM IMHO.

Highest State Income Taxes at 13.3 %
#4 Highest Home Cost
#6 Highest Electric Rates
#4 Highest Gasoline Tax
#8 Highest Property Taxes
#9 Highest Water rates

The good news is when you combine taxes and energy cost Hawaii has you beat, and that is because they are even more Left, I mean West of the left coast of California.

I love not having to pay any federal, state, local, and property taxes, almost free water, dirt cheap energy, and very low cost of living down here Well gas is kind of high down here, but with a NEV and everything with in 4 miles makes gasoline a moot point. Bus runs every 45 minute to David and only cost $1 round trip.

Where is this place you speak of?

[inetdog]

Where is this place you speak of?

Dereck has retired to Panama.

[DanKegel]

Solar H2O heaters are great. I own one and I'm keeping it. It works great. However, if I had a gas H2O heater, no solar, and it crapped the bed, AND I was considering Solar PV, AND I lived in a semi moderate climate, I'd consider replacing the dead heater with a heat pump water heater, and bump the array size by an appropriate amount. The life cycle cost of a solar flat plate water heater may be competitive to the heat pump + extra PV required. However, and even as a solar thermal fan, I've got to give the nod to the heat pump + PV by a nose based on likely lower maint...

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/...ly-really-dead agrees with you, based on cost.

In Los Angeles, the only solar thermal system in a house I've been in is broken, and others I can see from the street look decrepit, but I see lots of good-looking solar pv, and they seem reliable. Have not actually seen a heat pump water heater in the wild yet.

Natural gas is currently cheap in LA. Heat pump water heaters only really make sense here if you're trying to meet a zero-net-energy target. California is trying to do that for new homes by 2020 (for some definition of trying).

[J.P.M.]

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/...ly-really-dead agrees with you, based on cost.

In Los Angeles, the only solar thermal system in a house I've been in is broken, and others I can see from the street look decrepit, but I see lots of good-looking solar pv, and they seem reliable. Have not actually seen a heat pump water heater in the wild yet.

Natural gas is currently cheap in LA. Heat pump water heaters only really make sense here if you're trying to meet a zero-net-energy target. California is trying to do that for new homes by 2020 (for some definition of trying).

IMO, most folks who own/operate solar thermal water heaters do not understand that some maint. is necessary. Pipe insulation frays and the frames, being thicker - usually about 3" or so - are more visible in profile from the ground.

The usual situation is that they are given about as much maint. and thought by most folks as the rest of the plumbing, that is usually little or none. The usual situation of no monitoring equipment encourages out-of-sight, out-of-mind maint.

My limited experience w/solar thermal, in CA at least, is that most systems more than a few years old are in dire need of maint. to the point that more than a small percentage of those systems are not only non functional, but many of those still "working" are actually costing their owners more to operate than if they simply unplugged and removed them. With respect to relative appearance, Most solar thermal systems have been around longer than most PV. I'd give it a few years.

That lack of some required maint. does not make solar thermal is a bad choice as much as it says about user ignorance. Well designed systems that have some routine maint. function well at startup and maintain that performance level for some time. Fact of life: Solar thermal takes a bit (but not much) more maint. than a standard tank H2O heater or a solar PV system. I'd also suggest that if you see a lot of what you consider unsightly things on roofs, that may say more about your sensibilities than those of the owners.

On the economics of DHW: I have no idea what a zero net energy target might be. Sounds like some marketing hype/buzz term. I've usually been a fan of least cost to safely perform a required task.

Depending on the duty, situation and how one chooses to do an economic analysis, solar thermal is probably not cost as cost effective as a CH4 fired tank type heater at this time.

Where CH4 service is not available, solar thermal MAY be competitive with a std. elec. fired tank type, again, depending on particulars, including life cycle costs and practicality. It is for me, but only after I insulated the living crap out of the tank and all the hot water lines throughout the house.

On a CH4 vs. heat pump comparison, in general, I'm not a big fan of using low entropy electricity to perform a task done as well or better by other higher entropy, or more diffuse energy density sources. More of the cutting butter with a chain saw analogy.

However, if a changeout of equipment is necessary, due to failure, or some other non optional reason, it would seem that a heat pump water heater with a COP of, say, 3 or more, MAY be worth a sniff and perhaps more than a cursory look as a possibly valid economic alternative to any current method. If that electricity for the heat pump is at least partially supplied by a not yet acquired but considered solar PV, the economic analysis may get a bit more involved as it will involve a resize of optimum PV size, but it may be a more cost effective choice than the others, including CH4.

For the most part, CH4 supplied energy is and always has been cheaper than electricity. At the bottom line that's because, entropy won't let you violate the 2d law of Thermodynamics. However, thanks to Carnot, Clausius, Lord Kelvin,Willis Carrier and a bunch of giants, heat pumps can even the economic imbalance a bit, suck heat out of low(er) temp. sources and "pump" it up to a higher and thus more useful temp.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

[DanKegel]

IMO, most folks who own/operate solar thermal water heaters do not understand that some maint. is necessary.

Yeah. These days most folks just want things to work forever without worrying about them. When I was a kid, cars needed frequent upkeep (oil, tires, etc. etc.) Today's cars seems to need much less, and as a result I doubt the average consumer of today would put up with cars as they were in the '60's.

For better or worse, most people today can't even be bothered to read a manual, let alone do preventative maintenance.
For them, conventional natural gas hot water heaters (or if natural gas isn't an option) PV heat pump water heaters seem more appropriate than solar thermal hot water heaters.

I have no idea what a zero net energy target might be.

That's one of them green things certain people at this site seem to frown on.
See e.g. http://www.californiaznehomes.com/ which says "A zero net energy (ZNE) building produces as much energy as it consumes over the course of a year. These buildings achieve ZNE first through high levels of energy efficiency, and then through the addition of clean, on-site renewable power generation, typically solar PV."

[J.P.M.]

Yeah. These days most folks just want things to work forever without worrying about them. When I was a kid, cars needed frequent upkeep (oil, tires, etc. etc.) Today's cars seems to need much less, and as a result I doubt the average consumer of today would put up with cars as they were in the '60's.

For better or worse, most people today can't even be bothered to read a manual, let alone do preventative maintenance.
For them, conventional natural gas hot water heaters (or if natural gas isn't an option) PV heat pump water heaters seem more appropriate than solar thermal hot water heaters.



That's one of them green things certain people at this site seem to frown on.
See e.g. http://www.californiaznehomes.com/ which says "A zero net energy (ZNE) building produces as much energy as it consumes over the course of a year. These buildings achieve ZNE first through high levels of energy efficiency, and then through the addition of clean, on-site renewable power generation, typically solar PV."

On those green things: Seems to me that all too often those campaigns want to reduce what is a not terribly complex, but multifaceted situation to a bumper sticker mental level. Seems to me that appeals to what are, to my experience anyway, most (but not all) environmentally concerned folks who often exhibit a form of hypocrisy that is only exceeded by their ignorance.

I'm not sure that any perceived good achieved by slogans and jingoism is worth the price paid in lack of appreciation and sincere thoughtful discussion of the real aspects of the situation beyond buzzwords and feel good rants from all sides/stripes of an issue that seem to accomplish little besides hot air and bad feelings. But, that's just opinion.

[Sunking]

On those green things: Seems to me that all too often those campaigns want to reduce what is a not terribly complex, but multifaceted situation to a bumper sticker mental level. Seems to me that appeals to what are, to my experience anyway, most (but not all) environmentally concerned folks who often exhibit a form of hypocrisy that is only exceeded by their ignorance. .

Dan do you know who he is talking to?

[DanKegel]

JPM raises a question that is tiptoeing off this thread's topic, but I'd love to discuss it, so I started a new thread, http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...s-hypocritical

[solar_newbie]

we should have our solar system up in a few months. As I'm doing my homework and thinking about how to eliminate my utility bills, the only thing left is the hot water heater. Is it worth it to up the size of my system and swap out my hot water heater?

This would mean I should have 0 gas bill during the warmer months when we're not using the furnace

This is one idea I was thinking off beside using electric heater and reduce the use of the furnace. But the idea to get electric car is much better since this is win-win situation.
Gas price : $3/gallon. Drive around 30miles
Electric: 3-4 miles/kwh. So 10KWH = 1 gallon.
Price per kwh with solar and time-to-use is 2-3 cent/kwh (assume the ratio 3-4 converting between peak time and night time). So, 1Gallon price reduces to 20-30 cent.

People drive average 12K/year --> Saving will be more than 1K per year ... This will be the best vs everything else you save over solar for home usage.