What's the longest break-even point you'd accept for a solar system?

[cf400]

Yep we call them Politicians, Teachers, and Academics.

You left out airline management..... Long term planning! What's for lunch?

[Alisobob]

But with the TOU and an EV now running on the sun, ROI may be half that at this point.

tou2.JPG

...awesome.

[scrippsbruin96]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]6649[/ATTACH]

...awesome.

lol

[scrippsbruin96]

so my sales guys never said that?
his statement hasn't been proven over my almost 3 years experience with my 10Kw system?
it couldn't possibly have anything to do with your state having different rules, or whatever that makes your system different?

Tell me oh wise one, were you there when we had the conversation? have you seen my bills, or my production figures?

how about you take your 100% false and ...

Generating "money" is meant in the sense of making real money. 3k a year isn't squat when all you are doing is producing just enough to cover YOUR OWN damn bills. When we talk about generating money we are talking about over and above your own needs. you make that 3k PLUS 3 or 5k ADDITIONAL and you can toss around your "100%" false with some credibility. as it stands now, you have none

Actually I would say that's generating not just real money, but tax-free money.

Remember a penny saved is not a penny earned, it is really 1.5 to 2 pennies earned depending on your tax bracket.

These are real expenses that everyone is not only on the hook for, but everyone is spending after tax dollars on. Once ROI is reached, how else do you count the electric bill that you no longer have to pay?

[organic farmer]

I agree, planned for 5 year ROI for the system as well.

But with the TOU and an EV now running on the sun, ROI may be half that at this point.

'TOU' I had to google.

Where I live, they recently 'up-graded' our meters to 'smart-meters'. These 'smart-meters' can be queried via digital signal sent over the power line [on the 60hz carrier], and they will respond with their serial number and meter reading. Our Utility company can not read all meters in a given day, it would over-whelm their system. In theory all meters get read once a month for billing. Also they try to read one meter in each township everyday, to give them some idea of which townships have power and which townships are experiencing grid-down on each day.

That is 'smart-metering' here. We have different rates, according to residential or business. But time-of-day makes no difference. They can not read our meters weekly even.

So my question is: "How much of the nation has TOU"?

[J.P.M.]

'TOU' I had to google.

Where I live, they recently 'up-graded' our meters to 'smart-meters'. These 'smart-meters' can be queried via digital signal sent over the power line [on the 60hz carrier], and they will respond with their serial number and meter reading. Our Utility company can not read all meters in a given day, it would over-whelm their system. In theory all meters get read once a month for billing. Also they try to read one meter in each township everyday, to give them some idea of which townships have power and which townships are experiencing grid-down on each day.

That is 'smart-metering' here. We have different rates, according to residential or business. But time-of-day makes no difference. They can not read our meters weekly even.

So my question is: "How much of the nation has TOU"?

A good part of the nation has, or will have T.O.U. How many, or what portion of those who have T.O.U. available as an option actually choose it as their tariff is a different and perhaps interesting question.

Most states are different from one another, but in CA, where smart meters are common BTW, of the big 3 Investor Owned Utilities (the "I.O.U.'s") - SCE, PG & E and SDG & E, about 3.5% of the PG & E residential cust. choose T.O.U. at this time. For the other 2 , it's about 0.5% or a tad more. So, in CA at least, at this time, T.O.U. is not widely used. That will change with rate reform as T.O.U. becomes the default tariff with an opt out option or some such arrangement for the future.

[pleppik]

A good part of the nation has, or will have T.O.U. How many, or what portion of those who have T.O.U. available as an option actually choose it as their tariff is a different and perhaps interesting question.

My parents here in Minnesota are on a TOU tariff so they can charge their EV using off-peak power. The gap between on and off peak power here is about $0.16/kWh, so they can't quite justify buying a Tesla battery to run the house during the daytime.

[Sunking]

'TOU' I had to google.

Where I live, they recently 'up-graded' our meters to 'smart-meters'. These 'smart-meters' can be queried via digital signal sent over the power line [on the 60hz carrier], and they will respond with their serial number and meter reading. Our Utility company can not read all meters in a given day, it would over-whelm their system.

Don't be silly, in DFW area has more homes and meters than your whole state and you can download your usage information daily. Same goes for even much larger population areas. They have capabilities you have no idea that exist. They can tell when you are home, away, sleeping, and your behavior patterns. They even have capability to turn things off and on in your home built in. That is what the SMART GRID is, occupation and control of your life.

What you are saying is just as silly as saying you cannot be on the internet whenever you want.

[Rdjntx]

You could certainly say that AFTER ROI it is generating money. but until then unless you are making significantly more than your electric bill, you are not "making money". IMO you are not "making money" even AFTER ROI unless you are making significantly more than your electric bill would have been if you didn't have the system in place. You are Def. SAVING money .. but you are not "making" money. so far in early spring I generate about 25 bucks or so a month on electricity that I overproduce. but that is usually eaten up during the summer months when I don't overproduce enough during the day to offset everything I use at night.

you will not "make" money on these systems. you will certainly "save" a bunch however. I guess I am just the odd man out because I don't see them as the same.

Actually I would say that's generating not just real money, but tax-free money.

Remember a penny saved is not a penny earned, it is really 1.5 to 2 pennies earned depending on your tax bracket.

These are real expenses that everyone is not only on the hook for, but everyone is spending after tax dollars on. Once ROI is reached, how else do you count the electric bill that you no longer have to pay?

[J.P.M.]

You could certainly say that AFTER ROI it is generating money. but until then unless you are making significantly more than your electric bill, you are not "making money". IMO you are not "making money" even AFTER ROI unless you are making significantly more than your electric bill would have been if you didn't have the system in place. You are Def. SAVING money .. but you are not "making" money. so far in early spring I generate about 25 bucks or so a month on electricity that I overproduce. but that is usually eaten up during the summer months when I don't overproduce enough during the day to offset everything I use at night.

you will not "make" money on these systems. you will certainly "save" a bunch however. I guess I am just the odd man out because I don't see them as the same.

Commonly, a residential solar electric system produces electricity. Depending on how you care to look at it, The revenue that the system produces through a net metering agreement may be used to offset an expense - the power bought from the POCO - in 2 ways: To replace electricity that would otherwise be purchased from the POCO if/when instantaneous production exceeds instantaneous consumption, and/or as revenue that is "bankable" for later use of the excess production.

That revenue will then be used to pay the expense of additional power purchased when the POCO delivers power delivers power when the system does not.

A working system under a net metering plan will produce revenue. That revenue will, in one form or another and depending on system size and homeowner power demands, offset some, all, or more than the expense of the electricity purchased from the POCO.

Sort of like double entry bookkeeping for energy as well as $$'s.

[Rdjntx]

kinda my point. to ME in order to say you are making money with a system you should be making more money than just what you use. for example,

if over the course of a year I produce 45megawatts of energy and use 44.5Mw I am not making money even if I get paid for that extra .5mw. If however I generate 45Mw and only use 30Mw THEN I can say I am making money with the system and it will be enough to brag about. My installer called it when he said that people don't make money with these systems. I have yet to see one that made more than a few bucks a year over and above what they used.

Commonly, a residential solar electric system produces electricity. Depending on how you care to look at it, The revenue that the system produces through a net metering agreement may be used to offset an expense - the power bought from the POCO - in 2 ways: To replace electricity that would otherwise be purchased from the POCO if/when instantaneous production exceeds instantaneous consumption, and/or as revenue that is "bankable" for later use of the excess production.

That revenue will then be used to pay the expense of additional power purchased when the POCO delivers power delivers power when the system does not.

A working system under a net metering plan will produce revenue. That revenue will, in one form or another and depending on system size and homeowner power demands, offset some, all, or more than the expense of the electricity purchased from the POCO.

Sort of like double entry bookkeeping for energy as well as $$'s.

[scrippsbruin96]

kinda my point. to ME in order to say you are making money with a system you should be making more money than just what you use. for example,

if over the course of a year I produce 45megawatts of energy and use 44.5Mw I am not making money even if I get paid for that extra .5mw. If however I generate 45Mw and only use 30Mw THEN I can say I am making money with the system and it will be enough to brag about. My installer called it when he said that people don't make money with these systems. I have yet to see one that made more than a few bucks a year over and above what they used.

To me it is just a different way of looking at things. I think we can all agree however we want to call it, nothing starts happening until after the ROI. Hence the importance of OP's question.

Yes it is saving, but the type of saving you get from removing a recurring essential element of monthly overhead to me qualifies for more than just saving. I can certainly understand not wanting to call that making money, as some people are likely to use that to justify additional spending. I call it making money because it prompt me to be ever searching for new ways to cut down that overhead. We went with artificial turf 5 years ago at $8k. With monthly saving of $200 in water and gardener. ROI was achieved in 3.5 years.

We went solar at about the same time we purchased an EV. The net cost of trading in the old car and purchase of the new EV was $10k. As is the cost of solar. Yearly saving on gas and electricity will be at $4500. ROI will be at about 4.5 years.

Combined we'll be looking at a recurring reduction of $6900 off what we would have otherwise continued to pay year after year. Not as something we enjoy, but just part of the necessary overhead. Yes you can say that is just saving, but I see that to be much more than that.

[russ]

Combined we'll be looking at a recurring reduction of $6900 off what we would have otherwise continued to pay year after year. Not as something we enjoy, but just part of the necessary overhead. Yes you can say that is just saving, but I see that to be much more than that.

That is the portion the neighbors pay for you.

[solarix]

Combined we'll be looking at a recurring reduction of $6900 off what we would have otherwise continued to pay year after year. Not as something we enjoy, but just part of the necessary overhead. Yes you can say that is just saving, but I see that to be much more than that.

No no, you need to be bound into the great economy - working, working, working to pay your daily expenses. You should be enslaved to debt, helping to make the world go round - faster, faster, faster, more, more, more, growth, growth, growth.... You should be ashamed of your self for trying to be independent and sustainable! Just think of the taxes you are not having to pay because you don't have to make income to pay for those recurring expenses - how will the govmnt pay for all the things we want? We need to all be lemmings, blindly going down the same path until the public utilities decide solar is better (but you should buy it from them) - you can't jump ship on your own and head off using your own power leaving the rest in a financial spiral.... You people exercising your independence, leading the way to a brighter future - you are just causing trouble for the rest!

[organic farmer]

Don't be silly, in DFW area has more homes and meters than your whole state and you can download your usage information daily. Same goes for even much larger population areas. They have capabilities you have no idea that exist. They can tell when you are home, away, sleeping, and your behavior patterns. They even have capability to turn things off and on in your home built in. That is what the SMART GRID is, occupation and control of your life.

I understand that you live in a big city. I get it.

I do not. As you pointed out, my state is mostly rural. Over 92% of Maine is forest.

I have read online about how 'smart meters' work in your big cities. The meters use a Wifi band to transmit realtime data to the sub-station, etc. I get it.

Again, as we both agree, I do not live in a big city. The largest city in my state is only 60,000 people and that is 3+ hours away from me.

Here in my area, when they upgraded the electric meters to 'smart devices', they did not choose to buy meters that had Wifi transmitters on them. They chose instead to use devices that feed signals onto the power line. It is not a high-speed method of comms. All they wanted, was to get your monthly meter reading, without having to send out meter-readers.

Every day there are entire townships without power. Every day there are linemen running around repairing downed lines. We live in dense forest. Every time the wind blows, trees fall down.

Because our smart-meters do not have high-speed comms, the utility company has a hard time figuring out exactly where the power outages are located each day.

So they ask home-owners to call them to report outages, as our phone calls are the fastest method for them to work-out exactly which townships are effected by each day's power outages.

My township has the interstate cutting through our town. So we have cellphone coverage because of the interstate. Towns to either side of our town [away from the interstate] do not have cellphone coverage. Of course the majority of townships in this state have no cellphone signal. We are rural.

Rural communities work differently than how urban communities work.

... What you are saying is just as silly as saying you cannot be on the internet whenever you want.

I have many friends who use satellite dishes for their WWW access.

A small portion of my township has access to grid power lines and phone lines. I live in that section of town, so I do have access to the grid power and to phone lines [for WWW access]. However most parcels of land / home sites in my township do not have access to power lines or phone lines.

If they want power, they must make it. If they want access to the WWW, they generally need to use a satellite dish.

Two towns over they used to have a cable company. But that company went bankrupt. When homes are miles apart, it requires a lot of cable. You might easily bury 100 miles of cable to reach 10 or 20 homes.

There are big cities where you might have a million people all within one square-mile. High population-density makes it possible to do a lot of things. We have between 1 and 10 people per square-mile.