TOU for SCE in Southern California analysis

[insaneoctane]

Risk nothing, be nothing. Under the Ready, Aim, Fire category - Take the shot. Looks like you've done a lot of homework. You are now one of the go to people for SCE tariffs.

Thanks. I am sure there are better resources for SCE tariffs, but I certainly will help where I can.

[J.P.M.]

Thanks. I am sure there are better resources for SCE tariffs, but I certainly will help where I can.

You're Welcome.

I wouldn't sell myself short on that one. Think about this: If there were real good sources for information, don't you think you'd have found them by now after all the effort ?

FWIW, I think my stuff is pretty good for SDG & E and it can replicate most tiered bills within a few cents exclusive of weird local taxes, but I've not seen stuff as accurate. I'm working on T.O.U., but I really feel that's a matter of production income vs. the expense of time of use and lowering usage and time of use until cost matches or is lower than revenue.

Besides, the POCO's seem to feel that they have nothing to gain by explaining things, so they don't.

What you have may not be unique, and it probably will need some tweaking for awhile, but I bet it's pretty accurate for its purpose.

Just keep checking.

[insaneoctane]

Just keep checking.

I definitely will. I'm "that" type. My current rate plan, RATE-D with just tiers was *EASY* compared to all the TOU stuff we just did here. I had a slick spreadsheet for my ROI that when I got my monthly bill, I added one new row. Each month I filled in about ~6 key parameters from the bill and the spreadsheet calculated what my bill *would* have been prior to solar. In order for it to work correctly, I had to validate baselines #'s and rates each time. The quick way I found to do this was to have it calculate my bill based off my actual usage (which I pull independently from my TED 5000 device- I've got that fairly automated too with an automatic URL generated by Excel) and if my estimated bill is within a couple pennies, I've validated my baselines and rates without digging deep...we know how often they make little changes. In the last 4 bills it's either been spot on or within a penny. Then, once I see what I "saved" (with vs without solar), I write myself a check to a separate (high-yield) savings account I've got setup. The idea is that I'll pay myself back for my solar installation, month by month based off my actual ROI.

Now, with the new TOU-D-A rate plan that I've just changed to, I should be able to do something similar based on all the work I've already done to support this thread and the decision, but with hourly data needed to calculate/validate things, it won't be a single row in Excel anymore! Maybe a summary row on a separate spreadsheet and I'll archive the underlying data somehow. Funny how I got this whole ROI/spreadsheet really dialed in, so what do I do? Go make a big change like a rate change and have to start over!

[J.P.M.]

I definitely will. I'm "that" type. My current rate plan, RATE-D with just tiers was *EASY* compared to all the TOU stuff we just did here. I had a slick spreadsheet for my ROI that when I got my monthly bill, I added one new row. Each month I filled in about ~6 key parameters from the bill and the spreadsheet calculated what my bill *would* have been prior to solar. In order for it to work correctly, I had to validate baselines #'s and rates each time. The quick way I found to do this was to have it calculate my bill based off my actual usage (which I pull independently from my TED 5000 device- I've got that fairly automated too with an automatic URL generated by Excel) and if my estimated bill is within a couple pennies, I've validated my baselines and rates without digging deep...we know how often they make little changes. In the last 4 bills it's either been spot on or within a penny. Then, once I see what I "saved" (with vs without solar), I write myself a check to a separate (high-yield) savings account I've got setup. The idea is that I'll pay myself back for my solar installation, month by month based off my actual ROI.

Now, with the new TOU-D-A rate plan that I've just changed to, I should be able to do something similar based on all the work I've already done to support this thread and the decision, but with hourly data needed to calculate/validate things, it won't be a single row in Excel anymore! Maybe a summary row on a separate spreadsheet and I'll archive the underlying data somehow. Funny how I got this whole ROI/spreadsheet really dialed in, so what do I do? Go make a big change like a rate change and have to start over!

What you write sounds real familiar. I found comparing spreadsheet predictions to actual bills is a very helpful/powerful checking tool. It also highlighted to me all the strange interactions and stuff my mother (or SDG& E) never told me. I'm lucky in that several neighbors share their bills/usage with me. No one is on T.O.U. yet.

I don't fear the spreadsheet part of making sense of T.O.U., but getting a realistic and representative set of usage vs. time data is something I'm still thinking/working toward.

Regards,

[sensij]

The Eagle device (~$100), made by Rainforest Automation, talks directly to a smart meter and makes your usage data available for logging... either directly into csv, or uploading to the cloud. No calibration problems since it is getting data from the meter itself. It is compatible with most SDG&E, SCE, and PG&E meters. I transfer my data to PVOutput.org at 5 minute intervals, although it is capable of reporting much faster. You can see my consumption data here... the PV production data will be added soon. Click a date to see the detail... the defauly view is intended for production data, which I don't have yet.

It is pretty easy to see by looking at the chart when the fridges, heater and other cyclic loads come on. Loads like the microwave, electric oven, and humidifier are also easy to spot. I've started using a Kill-A-Watt to mapping out my baseline usage, usually around 170 W, or over 200 when the fountain is running, and have accounted for around 100 W of it so far.

[J.P.M.]

The Eagle device (~$100), made by Rainforest Automation, talks directly to a smart meter and makes your usage data available for logging... either directly into csv, or uploading to the cloud. No calibration problems since it is getting data from the meter itself. It is compatible with most SDG&E, SCE, and PG&E meters. I transfer my data to PVOutput.org at 5 minute intervals, although it is capable of reporting much faster. You can see my consumption data here... the PV production data will be added soon. Click a date to see the detail... the defauly view is intended for production data, which I don't have yet.

It is pretty easy to see by looking at the chart when the fridges, heater and other cyclic loads come on. Loads like the microwave, electric oven, and humidifier are also easy to spot. I've started using a Kill-A-Watt to mapping out my baseline usage, usually around 170 W, or over 200 when the fountain is running, and have accounted for around 100 W of it so far.

Thanx for the insight. Honest.

[bcroe]

The Eagle device (~$100), made by Rainforest Automation, talks directly to a smart meter and makes your usage data available for logging... either directly into csv, or uploading to the cloud. No calibration problems since it is getting data from the meter itself. It is compatible with most SDG&E, SCE, and PG&E meters. I transfer my data to PVOutput.org at 5 minute intervals, although it is capable of reporting much faster. You can see my consumption data here... the PV production data will be added soon. Click a date to see the detail... the defauly view is intended for production data, which I don't have yet.

It is pretty easy to see by looking at the chart when the fridges, heater and other cyclic loads come on. Loads like the microwave, electric oven, and humidifier are also easy to spot. I've started using a Kill-A-Watt to mapping out my baseline usage, usually around 170 W, or over 200 when the fountain is running, and have accounted for around 100 W of it so far.

That Kill-A-Watt can help you figure exactly where and how much energy you are using. With
that knowledge what will you change? How will the 5 minute monitoring help? Bruce Roe

[J.P.M.]

That Kill-A-Watt can help you figure exactly where and how much energy you are using. With
that knowledge what will you change? How will the 5 minute monitoring help? Bruce Roe

It can be a big help in the quest to get a representative pattern of usage as f(time). That can be very helpful in determining whether T.O.U. billing may be beneficial to a user.

[sensij]

The Kill-A-Watt is great for matching usage patterns in the chart to actual devices and appliances, when disaggregation from chart patterns alone is difficult. It is not possible to access the power supply for every electricity consuming device, so there are some questions the Kill-A-Watt alone can't answer.

5 minutes is fast enough to detect short loads (like the microwave), and whether I collect at 5 min or 60 min the cost to me is the same.

As J.P.M. suggests, the more data I can collect, the more understanding I will have of how TOU pricing might affect me. Based on what the utilities are saying, sometime in the next few years, I think TOU pricing will become much more common, and I want to be prepared for it.

I find that by looking at the chart, it helps build a connection between my lifestyle choices and the energy it takes to support them. Whether that results in changes or not is too soon to say, but I like the feeling of being a conscious consumer of energy. I suspect that changes will creep in as a result of that awareness, whether I intend to make them or not.

[bcroe]

The Kill-A-Watt is great for matching usage patterns in the chart to actual devices and appliances, when disaggregation from chart patterns alone is difficult. It is not possible to access the power supply for every electricity consuming device, so there are some questions the Kill-A-Watt alone can't answer.

5 minutes is fast enough to detect short loads (like the microwave), and whether I collect at 5 min or 60 min the cost to me is the same.

As J.P.M. suggests, the more data I can collect, the more understanding I will have of how TOU pricing might affect me. Based on what the utilities are saying, sometime in the next few years, I think TOU pricing will become much more common, and I want to be prepared for it.

I find that by looking at the chart, it helps build a connection between my lifestyle choices and the energy it takes to support them. Whether that results in changes or not is too soon to say, but I like the feeling of being a conscious consumer of energy. I suspect that changes will creep in as a result of that awareness, whether I intend to make them or not.

Yes I keep forgetting about that T.O.U. billing on the left coast. I was able to access
any 120VAC device, including wired in devices like motion detectors and GFI
outlets. I installed a special outlet on the main box for the Kill-A-Watt and fed each
circuit through it. For the 240VAC range I used a regular revenue (disc) meter.

Awareness and understanding are the first step. The first thing I noticed was how
much was just waste, and how much improvement could be made without any
lifestyle change. The microwave oven used more KWH a year in standby than in
operation; now modified the standby is zero. And so on. Bruce Roe

[insaneoctane]

I installed the TED5000 once I decided to go solar, but prior to solar installation because I was unsatisfied with only knowing my net usage. While it's true my PUCO can supply me hourly data, net usage would have me running outside to my inverter to figure actual consumption vs generation. Not to mention trying to do any analysis afterwards, when I couldn't see what the inverter output *was*. Anyway I really love my TED5000 data. I admit I am a data head, so although I feel totally justified in considering it a need for me, others might think differently. If my PUCO could have differentiated between consumption, generation, and net I might have thought of doing without.

I originally considered micro inverters almost solely for the data gateway options. I feel this valuable forum offered more level headed advice. The TED5000 was my compromise and I feel a great one at that!

[J.P.M.]

I installed the TED5000 once I decided to go solar, but prior to solar installation because I was unsatisfied with only knowing my net usage. While it's true my PUCO can supply me hourly data, net usage would have me running outside to my inverter to figure actual consumption vs generation. Not to mention trying to do any analysis afterwards, when I couldn't see what the inverter output *was*. Anyway I really love my TED5000 data. I admit I am a data head, so although I feel totally justified in considering it a need for me, others might think differently. If my PUCO could have differentiated between consumption, generation, and net I might have thought of doing without.

I originally considered micro inverters almost solely for the data gateway options. I feel this valuable forum offered more level headed advice. The TED5000 was my compromise and I feel a great one at that!

The (IMO) wise observation about having 2 watches as thus not knowing what time it is notwithstanding, how about both, Eagle and Ted ?

[insaneoctane]

You can see my consumption data here... the PV production data will be added soon.

I'm impressed with how low you have your always on/baseline rate. I can't seem to get there with 2 refrigerators, 2 DVRs (24/7), my Dell i3 server (24/7), and all my network equipment (24/7). There is probably more work for me to do against my always on usage, but likely with some compromise. I also have a family of 5. Anyway, good job.

...the PV production data will be added soon.

What will provide this data?

[insaneoctane]

I'm not sure how much more you guys care about this thread anymore, but I've sort of committed to myself to complete a few more hooks in the spreadsheet to make it more general and manipulate-able. So, I'm making it easy to scale both usage and production based off a matrix of 0-23 (hours) by 1-12 (months). This helps have enough control to do some high level what-if analysis. Anyway, I just looked at my newly selected TOU-D-A plan vs generation and it's quite sensitive. For my baseline usage, I have to generate at least 8,000 kWh/year to break even and at least 6,500 kWh/year to beat RATE-D. Without knowing my systems output, it's interesting; we'll see where I end up. Anyway here's that graph for those interested.

I figured the scaling array would make it easy to adjust for the light months I had in July and November because I wasn't home. I can scale those months up if I didn't think that was normal.

tou-graph_gen_2015.03.15.JPG

[silversaver]

I would not say which plan is better than others, choose whatever is best for you.