Net metering with FPL Smart Meters

[n4mwd]

This question is in regards to unauthorized net metering. In the old days, the meters just turned backwards so if you threw in less than you took out, then you would just get a lower bill.

But now they have smart meters. I live in Florida and they recently converted everyone over to smart meters. So what happens now with the FPL smart meters?

Given my consumption, I could have a 1K array and never produce more than I use in a given month. However, it is very possible that I could consume less than that at any given moment. So what happens if the new smart meter sees power going backwards for a few seconds?

Is is possible to net meter without the hassle of going official in Florida?

[SunEagle]

This question is in regards to unauthorized net metering. In the old days, the meters just turned backwards so if you threw in less than you took out, then you would just get a lower bill.

But now they have smart meters. I live in Florida and they recently converted everyone over to smart meters. So what happens now with the FPL smart meters?

Given my consumption, I could have a 1K array and never produce more than I use in a given month. However, it is very possible that I could consume less than that at any given moment. So what happens if the new smart meter sees power going backwards for a few seconds?

Is is possible to net meter without the hassle of going official in Florida?

Not really.

First you would have to babysit the system all day to make sure you were using more than what you were producing. On top of that someone at the POCO would notice that you are using much less power then in previous months and might think your meter is broken and come out an investigate. It would be hard to hide a 1k array.

[russ]

Make the system legal if you can - the outlaw route is silly.

[n4mwd]

In FL, the legal way is not realistic for a 1K array. I checked. By the time I get done paying for all the contractors, inspectors, permits and state bribes I could buy a whole new 1K array - maybe bigger. Not to mention what the property appraiser will do to me come property tax time.

I'd be content if the smart meters simply stopped when power ran backwards through them rather than giving me a credit, but I simply don't know how these things operate. Pushing current backwards could set off all sorts of alarms. I'm told they can even disconnect the power remotely with these things.

So I was wondering if anybody with an FPL smart meter has ever tried to do unauthorized net metering and what the results were.

Anybody here do legal net metering in FL?

[n4mwd]

Not really.

First you would have to babysit the system all day to make sure you were using more than what you were producing. On top of that someone at the POCO would notice that you are using much less power then in previous months and might think your meter is broken and come out an investigate. It would be hard to hide a 1k array.

My usage is between 15 and 65 KWh/day. At theoretical maximum, a 1K panel could produce something like 12 KWh per day, but more like 4-6 KWh/day. So over a month it would never go negative, but it could go negative at times during the day when power consumption is unusually low.

I was thinking that if the smart meters wont allow unauthorized net metering, I could probably connect the inverter to the HVAC compressor relay. That way, since the compressor uses more than 1K, it would never try to push current backwards through the meter. Unfortunately, it means a huge loss of PV power during times that the compressor is not running.

Has anybody here figured out a way to handle this kind of problem?

[SunEagle]

My usage is between 15 and 65 KWh/day. At theoretical maximum, a 1K panel could produce something like 12 KWh per day, but more like 4-6 KWh/day. So over a month it would never go negative, but it could go negative at times during the day when power consumption is unusually low.

I was thinking that if the smart meters wont allow unauthorized net metering, I could probably connect the inverter to the HVAC compressor relay. That way, since the compressor uses more than 1K, it would never try to push current backwards through the meter. Unfortunately, it means a huge loss of PV power during times that the compressor is not running.

Has anybody here figured out a way to handle this kind of problem?

Smart meters were not designed to prevent net metering. But they do have a way of informing the POCO of suspicious activity.

Because there is a chance you could generate more than you use even for a short period of time the meter can set off an alarm at FPL. They would investigate and if they found you had illegally tied a solar inverter to "their" grid they more than likely will shut you down.

On top of that if you made an illegal connection with your PV system any electrical issue or if a fire broke out at your house I seriously doubt the Insurance company would pay you.

You can find ways to use that 1kw of panels dedicated to a specific load not connected to the Grid but you will need batteries to do so. And once you add in the required batteries and charger you will find you are spending 5 to 10 times to generate a kWh then just purchasing it from FPL.

I understand your desire to use solar and help offset your electric bill but I would advise you to do all the work Legally and Safely so that no one gets hurt or you lose power from service disconnection.

[n4mwd]

You can find ways to use that 1kw of panels dedicated to a specific load not connected to the Grid but you will need batteries to do so. And once you add in the required batteries and charger you will find you are spending 5 to 10 times to generate a kWh then just purchasing it from FPL.

Unfortunately, that is very true. I found that out the hard way. When I could buy a golf cart battery for $50 it was doable, but now that they are twice that, and only last about 3-4 years, it a lot harder. For a long time, I used a battery system to operate my well pump for the house. I had two 120W panels in parallel running into first, two L16's (I think that is what they were called), then two GC batteries after they quit working. After the second set of batteries died, I just plugged it into FPL and the panels have been lying fallow ever since.

Incidentally, my experiment with the two panels was a failure and I did a lot of things wrong, such as connecting the panels in parallel and using a non-MPPT charge controller, but they did come through for me in 2004 when there was widespread power outages due to the hurricanes. While other people had to cart in bottled water, my water system ran normally thanks to the solar power - and the fact that they weren't blown off the roof.

Still, I'd like to go to a larger system and not have to deal with batteries, or at least not that many. Another bad thing about batteries is that you only get about 80 watts for every 100 you put in.

[SunEagle]

Unfortunately, that is very true. I found that out the hard way. When I could buy a golf cart battery for $50 it was doable, but now that they are twice that, and only last about 3-4 years, it a lot harder. For a long time, I used a battery system to operate my well pump for the house. I had two 120W panels in parallel running into first, two L16's (I think that is what they were called), then two GC batteries after they quit working. After the second set of batteries died, I just plugged it into FPL and the panels have been lying fallow ever since.

Incidentally, my experiment with the two panels was a failure and I did a lot of things wrong, such as connecting the panels in parallel and using a non-MPPT charge controller, but they did come through for me in 2004 when there was widespread power outages due to the hurricanes. While other people had to cart in bottled water, my water system ran normally thanks to the solar power - and the fact that they weren't blown off the roof.

Still, I'd like to go to a larger system and not have to deal with batteries, or at least not that many. Another bad thing about batteries is that you only get about 80 watts for every 100 you put in.

Like you I went through the same power outages in 2004. I purchased a nice 5500w generator which provided enough power to keep fans, lights and frig cool. But I also thought about using solar as a power backup source.

I built my first solar battery system and bought 80 & 90 watt panels, 12v 50AH AGM batteries and a PWM CC. WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Then I started to really read the posting here and found where I went wrong and what is the better way to match equipment (panel wattage, CC, battery AH and inverter) to make a balanced system that would possibly last 4 year. Even then when I did the math I was paying about $1.25 to generate a kWh. That was crazy expensive. My little system is sitting in my garage ready for (whatever) and now I just make sure I keep the batteries happy knowing that they will last maybe another couple of years just sitting there waiting to be used.

Now I try to convince others that the only solar pv system that can eventually pay for itself is a moderate sized one that is grid tied. Any type of off grid battery system is an expensive and for me foolish way to go.

Since 2006 we have had maybe a few power outages during the day that has lasted a couple hours. It was easy to run my generator and provide the necessities for that time periond. I added a LGP generator to the gas one and now can provide some power using two different fuels should one or the other become hard to come by.

Maybe you can find a use for your 1kw system but there is not safe or reliable way to provide continuous power to a load without the use of batteries.

[Sunking]

Given my consumption, I could have a 1K array and never produce more than I use in a given month. However, it is very possible that I could consume less than that at any given moment. So what happens if the new smart meter sees power going backwards for a few seconds?

Not only is it possible you could send power out on the grid, it will happen on a daily basis periodically.

Two things happen:

1. They bill the power you send out as power used by you meaning you pay them for power you generated an did not use. Then they sell that excess power to your neighbor.
2. Sets an Alarm Flag notifying FPL of an illegal connection which gets your service disconnected. To get reconnected you will have to remove the system, have an inspection at your expense, penalty fee, and connection fees.

Pretty smart meters huh? You cannot win.

[n4mwd]

Apparently, FPL does allow people to opt-out of the smart meter program, but they charge a $90 installation fee and $13 a month. Not only that, but they send a guy around who would likely notice the panels.

Other than that, the only way I can think of to get around the smart meter problem is to figure out a way to only let the inverter run when large appliances are also running.

A battery system isn't even close to cost effective, but is great in areas with no grid power (like this area used to be). Or possibly an RV. Also, supercaps might be a viable choice over batteries because they are more efficient.

[russ]

Also, supercaps might be a viable choice over batteries because they are more efficient.

Come on - get your feet back on the ground - what you say makes zero sense.

[n4mwd]

Come on - get your feet back on the ground - what you say makes zero sense.

Unless this video is a fake, I don't think its all that far fetched at all. The question I have is what is the longevity of such a system. The caps are about the same cost as a battery. Anyway, its something to consider.