Feedback on proposals for San Diego: LG/Hanwha + Solar Edge

[SoCalsolar]

This method is 100% legit

This method is 100% legit and not a steaming pile of #2 as some have suggested. Look around at the new homes that are built with solar integrated in the roof and they are largely flush mounted. Dead Animals getting stuck under your array causing your roof to leak? If this array was located Costa Rica perhaps because of jungle critters climbing the trees that sprouted because you lived in a rain forest. This is San Diego you could have an open hole in your roof most years and not get water damage because of the rain. Mold? Rotting flesh? a smell emanating from your roof? This thought experiment went way off the rails and yes somebody is peddling you a heap of steaming #2 but it isn't your solar guy. JPM you add a lot to the forum but I think your account has been hacked because that post was very short on evidence and uncharacteristically on high on hype. HOA's wising up on this scam? Evidence perhaps? Is your potential solar array visible from the ground or street? Why the talk of the flush mount?

As far as the airflow when you remove tile and replace with comp you lower the profile of the roof because the comp is 2-4 inches thinner than S tile. If you combine this with a railless mounting system you won't affect the air flow as much as a railed system. While this method of mounting is legit the increase in cost is about 40% too much in my experience and that is why option number 1 seems to be a better value not because rotting flesh and fermenting guano will will stink up your neighborhood .

[J.P.M.]

What I have been referring to are systems with arrays that have about 4" - 6" clearance between the roof deck and the array, not arrays that are flush to the roof with zero clearance.

Zero clearance array to roof will decrease system performance over normal clearance installs by (in all probability) increasing the system temp. It will also limit accessibility to the underside of arrays for inspection/array servicing, etc, and so probably not a good way to go. However, the problems I mentioned with mixed roofing types are easier to avoid by careful flashing around the array.

Overall, flush (zero clearance) arrays are not a good idea any more than composition shingles under an array and something else around it. Both ways of doing it will cause problems sooner than doing it for the long term.

[HX_Guy]

I also wanted to comment on air flow. Not sure what LG's specs are, but I know Canadian Solar requires that the panels are a certain amount off the roof surface, I believe at least 4".

[ericf1]

There is a small subdivision down the street from me that has what you describe in option #2 on every house. I've never been on the roofs, so I can't say how they handled the drainage. In addition to the items mentioned above, I would also be concerned with a lack of air flow under the panels. Normally, you want your panels 4-6 inches above the roof. These installations are pretty much flush. Seems to me option 2 is form over function.

[jd31]

I'm sure other installs look pretty much as you can imagine. What's to look at ? An array with a different roof under and skirting it. Option #2 is a pile of #2.

Mainly seeing the transition between the shingles and tile (assuming I could see a live install). The company is a roofing company so I'd expect them to know their stuff...but I'm also not finding a lot reviews of them online outside of Angie's list and Yelp.

[J.P.M.]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I too felt option # 2 posed water issues. And JPM brings up other good points about debris collecting under the panels, and not having the cement tiles for later use, etc. The company offered to take me to see other installs. Perhaps I'll take them up on the offer to see what the construction looks like. I'll try to snap some photos.

I'm sure other installs look pretty much as you can imagine. What's to look at ? An array with a different roof under and skirting it. Option #2 is a pile of #2.

[jd31]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I too felt option # 2 posed water issues. And JPM brings up other good points about debris collecting under the panels, and not having the cement tiles for later use, etc. The company offered to take me to see other installs. Perhaps I'll take them up on the offer to see what the construction looks like. I'll try to snap some photos.

[J.P.M.]

Option # 1 is, IMO, a better way to do it.

Option #2 will create a potential leak path for water. Don't do it.

A thought experiment: You go with option #2. Your array is on the roof with, say, a 3' clearance of roof between the top of the array and the roof ridge. It rains. water that hits the roof above the array flows down under the array onto the (new) shingles. The water continues under the array and eventually gets to the portion of the roof where the (new) composition shingles meet the existing (remaining) concrete tile. That water will now flow under the concrete tile. This is a built in path to get water where it is probably not wanted. The concrete tiles are admittedly not waterproof, but they are pretty effective at keeping almost all of the water away from the rest of the roof. This system is like a funnel leading under that existing tile. It's a B.S. path to built in problems.

That, however, is not the end of the story. All that water will carry with it various other stuff that falls onto a roof - bird crap, dead animals, bugs, leaves spalled off roof material, whatever. That stuff will get under the tiles, with the water, with at least 2 results. One being that it will slow down the rate of drainage from under the concrete tile. The second is that all that stuff, will sit under the tile in an environment that will probably stay quite moist due to lack of ventilation. It will also get quite warm during the day. That allows two or three conditions to exist that mold loves: moisture and heat and darkness. So, You have a created a breeding ground for moisture retention, mold growth and rot, not to mention the smell of all the rotting flesh and fermenting guano. A swamp on your roof of your own making.

But wait - there's more ! Someday, you, or a subsequent owner will want to remove that array for any number of reasons, known or unknown at this time - better performing equipment, new owners want something else, whatever. It may be very difficult to match the existing old roof tiles and appearance will be a problem of some concern.

I'd go with option # 1, have the paper under the existing tile under the array replaced and double flash the standoffs as that vendor seems to be saying. Just make sure they hit all the rafters.

If you are in an HOA, check their CC & R's. Some HOA's are wising up to this scam.

[jd31]

My gut feel is that Option 1 gives you the better roof. In option 2, at the bottom of the slope where it transitions from shingles to tile again, it sounds like the underlay is the only line of protection against water, and the edge of that bottom tile could create a dam that gives the water plenty of time to go where it doesn't belong. If the bottom edge was shingles all the way to the eve, it would sound pretty good to me.

How old is your roof? Does it need servicing, anyway?

Thanks for the reply! That was my concern as well, that the transition between the shingles and the tile could cause issues. I should ask about that.

When I purchased my house 6 months ago I got the roof inspected. The membrane (S tile cement roof) was in good condition. The estimated life was 10 to 15 years, but listed as "excellent". So it's not something I need anytime soon.

[sensij]

My gut feel is that Option 1 gives you the better roof. In option 2, at the bottom of the slope where it transitions from shingles to tile again, it sounds like the underlay is the only line of protection against water, and the edge of that bottom tile could create a dam that gives the water plenty of time to go where it doesn't belong. If the bottom edge was shingles all the way to the eve, it would sound pretty good to me.

How old is your roof? Does it need servicing, anyway?

[jd31]

I wanted to provide an update on my situation and solicit feedback on my options. For the time being, I've narrowed my search down to two installers, the difference being how the panels are installed. Is it worth the premium to go with option # 2 (see below)?

- Equipment is the same for both: LG280 panels with Solar Edge SE7600 inverter and Solar Edge P300 Power Optimizers
- System size: 7,150 watts

Option # 1:
- $3.31 /watts installed before subsidy.
- Installation: "The panels are mounted on racks and these racks are bolted to the roof rafters, so the solar array now becomes part of the roof. In order to do this we remove the concrete tiles where we need to bolt to the roof, then bolt the rack support poles down, seal and flash them, then replace the tiles around them and flash and seal around the tiles."

Option # 2:
- $3.99 /watt before subsidy. This is an initial quote and I know I can get it down.
- Installation: The array will cover 470 square feet. We will remove all of the tiles if that amount of surface area + a 12 inch perimeter around all of the panels. Then we will install a Certainteed (100 years old, $60,000,000,000 company) diamondback titanium synthetic underlayment. Under the panels we will install composition shingle and then install the solar system. Once it's completed we will retile like a 'picture frame' the 12" perimeter to give an inlay, low profile look. Re roofing in the future will be a breeze.

Option # 2 is boasting that I'm basically getting a new roof under the solar panels so that if I need to re-roof one day, that the roofing company would just need to work around the solar, i.e., install "will be a breeze". Also, they would flush mount the solar for a more aesthetically pleasing look versus the panels sitting 6" above the tile.

Question:
- all else being equal, is the installation process for option # 2 superior to that of option # 1? If yes, would you pay a premium for this type of install?

[jd31]

Both pics of roofs are of concrete S tile roof. Call it Spanish if you must just don't call it a PITA or clay tile because it is not. If it were a clay tile roof then replacing with a comp under the array would be advisable. The S tile roofs in the pics above are a basic installation no comp underlay needed if aesthetics are not a concern. As for Hanwha vs LG both are Korean conglomerates. At the same price point I tend to favor LG as they tend to create and develop their solar product versus Hanwha who bought out an independent solar manufacturer to get into the business. At a ten percent markup in your case slight edge to Hanwha. Although who installs it will likely have more impact on your solar experience than what you put on the roof with these options. I like the solar edge option for your inverters. To be fair to both installers I would recommend soliciting bids that are more similar in size and perhaps even in equipment.

Thanks for the input! To be clear, the pictures posted above are not of my home. However, it is in line with my install (I have cement "S" tiles). I spoke to the installers and they both would flash the tiles.

On Wednesday one of the companies will be out to do a site measure. Then I'll know for sure how many tiles I could fit and answer some of the other questions posted in the thread about angle, etc.

To answer a previous poster...I'm located in Poway so sunlight is aplenty.

[SoCalsolar]

Both pics of roofs are

Both pics of roofs are of concrete S tile roof. Call it Spanish if you must just don't call it a PITA or clay tile because it is not. If it were a clay tile roof then replacing with a comp under the array would be advisable. The S tile roofs in the pics above are a basic installation no comp underlay needed if aesthetics are not a concern. As for Hanwha vs LG both are Korean conglomerates. At the same price point I tend to favor LG as they tend to create and develop their solar product versus Hanwha who bought out an independent solar manufacturer to get into the business. At a ten percent markup in your case slight edge to Hanwha. Although who installs it will likely have more impact on your solar experience than what you put on the roof with these options. I like the solar edge option for your inverters. To be fair to both installers I would recommend soliciting bids that are more similar in size and perhaps even in equipment.

[sensij]

Any feedback on these two proposals in terms of equipment and cost?

Both Hanwha and LG make more than one series of panel, so the specific model number would matter if you want to dig deep into the specs. Hanwha has been making them a few years longer than LG (1999ish vs 2010), but it seems that LG has been successful using their brand recognition quickly become a player. Some people might consider difference in aesthetics to be important (mono vs poly, frame color, back sheet color). By the rating scheme calculated here, LG generally rates higher than Hanwha, but without a close look at the data sheets, it is hard to say why.

[thejq]

I can't comment on the Hanwha panels, but the LGs I have have been flawless. Per http://www.civicsolar.com/product/ha...wht-soar-panel and http://www.civicsolar.com/product/lg...ht-solar-panel the price differential is about $0.35/W. So your option 2 seems a little better in value.

As for the roof, my installer did similar to Bob's neighbor's. There were some breakage, but as shown he brought plenty of spares in case.
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