Solar install turning out really bad - looking for some help/advice please.

[sdold]

I think it might be good to buy an hour or two with an attorney that handles contract disputes or whatever makes the most sense, to keep yourself from sabotaging any case you have, if you haven't already done so by working on "his" job.

[bcroe]

Are you kidding me??

I was up on the roof making a change to the DC combiner box and while working on it, by accident I notice...WTF did that wire just move? Oh yea...a freaking wire that's supposed to be crimped tight just slid right out of the connector! A wire that has up to 500V going through it. This is a connector that the genius installer crimped together with a plier, instead of the proper MC4 connector crimper that costs a whopping $35 on Amazon! How the hell is this guy licensed and in business?!?

That connection is really bad news; I'm in agreement, every one the installer did needs to
be checked. I'm not sure, if the MC4s can be taken apart once the contacts are snapped
in place. Probably I'd do them all over. At the very least, note the position of every wire
and give it a good yank. After a high power interval, I sometimes check for any warm
MC4s, conduits, boxes, etc. An infrared temp gauge checks big critical connections.

Crimping has to be done exactly right, with the right tool, or there is no knowing what will
happen in the future. High resistance connections literally burn up, broken connections
create hazards. I crimp mine too, but then I solder each one. Probably not code, but I am
very good at soldering.

With your non isolated (I'm told) inverter, the DC input would need to track your line voltage
in operation. In a high voltage low current system like this, voltage drop in connectors isn't
going to affect operation till there is a failure. 20 volts lost through a connector at 5A will
probably be enough power to smoke it.

Be sure not to leave MC4s out exposed to the weather; corrosion may start and set up an
early failure (ask me how I know). Panels come with the leads loose; if they aren't
immediately used, short them together to keep the weather out. Bruce Roe

[HX_Guy]

Thanks Bruce. I can confirm that at least one other, besides the one in the picture, was also loose. The other 4 I checked at the combiner were snug.

Luckily all the connectors he constructed are pretty easily accessible if I remember correctly so it shouldn't be too difficult to redo them all, which I think is important to do even if they feel snug. I think there are only 6 other connectors throughout the array (aside from the ones right at the combiner).

[Living Large]

I find the fact the installer did shoddy electrical work absolutely shocking, considering the outstanding work he did attaching the rails to the roof.

[Alisobob]

That connection is really bad news; High resistance connections literally burn up,

Yup.....

fire_solar.jpg

I'm not kidding around with this photo.... your install issues just got very serious.

[HX_Guy]

Put together a timeline of everything based on emails, text messages and posts on here. May come in useful in the future.
Unbelievable how long I've been dealing with this.

[HX_Guy]

Just got off the phone with the installer (called him). Asked him what is going on with the project, he said he is picking up the permit (he thought I had it for some reason, I told him previously I had a copy of it from the city) and fixing what they asked for on the permit. I asked if he is redoing the permit vs changing the wiring, and he said he is doing both because the inspector noted that the PV meter socket model is not specified on the permit and to either specify it on the permit or get a letter of clarification form the design company. I don't know why he is electing to resubmit the permit vs the letter...to buy time I can only assume?

He acknowledged that he received my email and he said "I'm going to get what the inspector requested fixed and I'm going to get the city inspection passed and the APS inspection passed and be done with this. If you want to go about talking to the city, and to the inspector and all that, you go ahead but you're not going to tell me how to run my company, I'm going to run my company. This is the worst job I've ever had in my life. If you want to report me to the registrar of contractors and not pay me and hire an attorney, fine do what you need to do."

I told him this wouldn't have been the worst job of his life if he would have just done it properly from the start. I asked what kind of timeframe are we looking at and he said he is going to resubmit with the city tomorrow and when it's approved he is going to come out and redo the wiring.

Again to me it sounds like he's trying to buy some time, there is no reason to resubmit the permit especially that I told him I already received something from the designer to clarify the PV meter socket model. I think to that again he said he is going to do it how he wants to do it and he is going to run his business, not me.

[Ian S]

I really really REALLY think you need some legal advice. He will only do the minimum necessary to get it approved and if something goes south months from now, he's setting up an excuse to blame it on YOU causing the problems by meddling with his work.

[sensij]

Makes sense. And the idea that the voltage output of the optimizers would be higher than normal to make up for voltage loss in the connectors just does not seem credible to me.
With normal panels, you could be looking at an open circuit voltage on the order of 500V, but when the optimizers are open circuited or isolated from the SE inverter they drop their output to 1V.

I've looked into this some more, and yeah, the idea that the high-ish inverter voltage reported is reflecting DC voltage drop is incorrect. However, the thought I was chasing is, I think, still valid. In the non-public data shown in the monitoring portal, it is possible to see the DC output voltage of each of the optimizers. For each string, you could sum up the voltages of each of the optimizers. The voltage total for each string should be approximately equal, and perhaps slightly higher than the voltage reported by the inverter. If one of the strings has a higher voltage sum that can't be explained by a longer wire run, it could be an indication of a bad connection somewhere in that string. It could also mean the voltage calibration of the optimizers isn't good enough, I don't really know.

Anyway, just trying to think of ways to detect how many more bad MC4 connections might be in there. For those who might not be aware, pulling on the wires during the day as HX_Guy described can be done sort of safely with a SolarEdge system because when the inverter is off, the DC drops to 1 V per optimizer (as inetdog mentioned). With a normal string inverter, it is not a good idea, because there is no way to shut off the DC power in the array.

It is totally tangential, but the calculation of Voc in a SolarEdge system is very different than in a "normal" system. Because the panels are not connected, the Voc is only the value of the individual panel. That doesn't change no matter how many panels you connect, or how you choose to connect them.

[Volusiano]

Just got off the phone with the installer (called him). Asked him what is going on with the project, he said he is picking up the permit (he thought I had it for some reason, I told him previously I had a copy of it from the city) and fixing what they asked for on the permit. I asked if he is redoing the permit vs changing the wiring, and he said he is doing both because the inspector noted that the PV meter socket model is not specified on the permit and to either specify it on the permit or get a letter of clarification form the design company. I don't know why he is electing to resubmit the permit vs the letter...to buy time I can only assume?

He acknowledged that he received my email and he said "I'm going to get what the inspector requested fixed and I'm going to get the city inspection passed and the APS inspection passed and be done with this. If you want to go about talking to the city, and to the inspector and all that, you go ahead but you're not going to tell me how to run my company, I'm going to run my company. This is the worst job I've ever had in my life. If you want to report me to the registrar of contractors and not pay me and hire an attorney, fine do what you need to do."

I told him this wouldn't have been the worst job of his life if he would have just done it properly from the start. I asked what kind of timeframe are we looking at and he said he is going to resubmit with the city tomorrow and when it's approved he is going to come out and redo the wiring.

Again to me it sounds like he's trying to buy some time, there is no reason to resubmit the permit especially that I told him I already received something from the designer to clarify the PV meter socket model. I think to that again he said he is going to do it how he wants to do it and he is going to run his business, not me.

I didn't see you mention here whether you talked with him about the workmanship issue of the loose wiring on the MC4 connector or not. I think this workmanship issue is just as important as the passing inspection issue, although it's easy to be swept under the rug by the installer.

Did you just go ahead and fix the loose wiring yourself already? Or are you waiting to tell him to do it? And if he manages to pass the inspection next time and refuse to remove the panels to check the rest of the wiring again, what are you going to do? Remove the panels and check it yourself?

[HX_Guy]

I wrote in my email to him about the loose connector and also attached a picture. It slipped my mind to mention it in the phone conversation however he said something to the effect of "If you want to go up on the roof and start yanking on cables and void your warranty thats on you." So basically he's accusing me of pulling out the cables on purpose? Not even sure.

But yes, I do plan on going through and double checking the connectors myself. Even if he checks them himself, I don't trust him to redo them.

As for the two loose ones that I do know of, I left them as is so he can see for himself.

[Living Large]

I wrote in my email to him about the loose connector and also attached a picture. It slipped my mind to mention it in the phone conversation however he said something to the effect of "If you want to go up on the roof and start yanking on cables and void your warranty thats on you." So basically he's accusing me of pulling out the cables on purpose? Not even sure.

But yes, I do plan on going through and double checking the connectors myself. Even if he checks them himself, I don't trust him to redo them.

As for the two loose ones that I do know of, I left them as is so he can see for himself.

Unfortunately, this is the situation you are in. Someone who doesn't care about the quality of his work, does poor quality work, and has someone now inspecting every single thing he did. Given that baseline, and the fact this project appears to be a money loser for him, that reaction is not surprising. And when you think about it, if a homeowner yanks on a wire, and states they yanked on it, who is to say how hard they yanked? I believe you didn't yank hard - but this guy isn't your average contractor. You finding things means that much more uncompensated time he may have to spend.

[bcroe]

if a homeowner yanks on a wire, and states they yanked on it, who is to say how hard they yanked? I believe you didn't yank hard - but this guy isn't your average contractor.

Never mind how hard yanked; it would be impossible to pull out if properly crimped. An
examination of that or any of his crimps will reveal they are well below standard. Bruce Roe

[HX_Guy]

Of course he probably doesn't believe that I didn't even yank on it. It didn't even cross my mind to check his connections, it was purely accidental that I I even noticed.

I was unplugging the MC4 connectors to move them to the other side and noticed the wire moved, wasn't even sure. At that point, I did then tug on it a bit and it slid right out. Zero effort even required. As bcroe said though, you shouldn't be able to remove those plugs almost no matter how hard you try short of holding each end with a plier and pulling with all your strength.

And yeah, now knowing two are loose (I checked the other 5 connected to the combiner), he can bet his ass I'm going to check every single other one.

[control4userguy]

I'm beginning to think the more you do the better off your installer is. At some point (if not now), your involvement will eliminate him from any liability whatsoever. That's not to say you are in the wrong but maybe it's best to walk-away from him and chock it up lesson learned. The time you have spent, weighed against that same time spent at whatever it is you do to survive, I question as good ROI. Sad, but I guess you can say "you did it your way".