Service Panel Upgrade estimates in So Cal

[subdriver97]

My guess?

"We don't trust our sales guys to accurately estimate actual cost for a panel upgrade, as they would probably low-ball it so they can make a sale. So we use a price that should work out OK for us 75% of the time and don't let the sales guy deviate from that"

I'm actually coming to similar conclusion. I read that it's not unusual for panel upgrade estimates to change (significantly even) once the contract is signed, job is started and the electrician is on site and determines the what is really required to complete the job.

[russ]

I'm actually coming to similar conclusion. I read that it's not unusual for panel upgrade estimates to change (significantly even) once the contract is signed, job is started and the electrician is on site and determines the what is really required to complete the job.

Lousy estimating then! That sounds strange to me - once the contract is signed you are on the hook - unless the seller is a forgiving sort. From other comments you have made about this party they do not sound terribly professional.

[subdriver97]

Lousy estimating then! That sounds strange to me - once the contract is signed you are on the hook - unless the seller is a forgiving sort. From other comments you have made about this party they do not sound terribly professional.

I meant estimates starting low (sales guys trying to close a deal), then go up. To avoid this I would require language in the contract that states that that the contract has an electrician fully assess the work associated with the panel upgrade and agrees to perform the panel upgrade for the price agreed (meaning the vendor absorbs any increases in price due to poor initial assessment). I believe there is a sticky post on this thread with several contracting lessons learned which I fully intend on insisting on. Thanks for the great exchange of information.

I decided that it's pointless to argue with the salesman that insists that a service panel job costs $2500, no more, no less. If I want to argue, I'm going to have to go to some at a higher pay grade. And I very well may do that. If the overall cost of this vendor (pv panels/inverter, service panel upgrade, & roofing) workout less than overall price of other companies quoting ~$1500 for the service panel upgrade, I'm okay with that. I'm more interested in the quality of their craftsmanship than how they choose to allocate their profit margins.

[MGE]

Square D is usually more cost than the other brands, not any better than GE or Seimens. Whichever one you get make sure it has cooper busbar. I installed a GE 200a panel on my house about 10 years ago and have had no issues. Maybe I should start my business back up and just do service changes at $2500 a pop...... Na.

[thejq]

So did you find out if you have to pull a permit to upgrade the panel? is that included in the $2500?

[CA_Tom]

So did you find out if you have to pull a permit to upgrade the panel? is that included in the $2500?

I would expect the panel upgrade to just be a part of the solar install permit.
It's possible the building permit guys might make rules that require a 2nd permit, but I'd think it unlikely.

[Alisobob]

I had to replace my panel due to some dumb "Center Fed" vs. "End Fed"... nonsense...

My supplier used a panel made by Eaton, specifically for Solar Installations.

eaton1.JPGeaton2.JPG

Its got all the good solid copper bus bars, premarked solar labeling... etc..etc....

Something to consider if you have to replace yours..


solar f2.jpg

[CA_Tom]

I had to replace my panel due to some dumb "Center Fed" vs. "End Fed"... nonsense...

It's actually not nonsense - there's actually legitimate reason for it.
The bus bar is a big wire conducting electricity.
And it was designed for X Amps to flow through it at any spot along it's length.
So lets say X is 200.
200A coming in at one spot (from the meter) is able to go traverse the length of it and go out a breaker at the opposite end. (Or through multiple points along the bus)

So if we have the bus and the source and sink of those currents we can draw it like this:

+200 ======== -100 == -100

And you can see it's not over 200 anywhere along there.

Now let's add a solar panel input of 40A at one end and a new dryer and oven that are pulling 40A at the other:

+40 ===== +200 ======== -100 == -100 == -40

Well, that's not OK - now the bus is at 240A along part of it.
But if we had endfeed and put the solar at the opposite end of the main source:

** +200 ======== -100 == -100 == -40 =====+40
** impossible to add anything on this side because it is end feed

Now at no point is the bus over it's design (of 200A)
Even if we lower the amount consumed, that just lowers the amount coming in from the meter, and we still stay under 200A

SO - with end-feed it's possible to make sure that you never go over that design spec of 200A.
With center-feed it's relatively easy to have it go over spec if you allow >100% of what's spec'd to be input power sources.

[bcroe]

But if we had endfeed and put the solar at the opposite end of the main source:

** +200 ======== -100 == -100 == -40 =====+40
** impossible to add anything on this side because it is end feed

Now at no point is the bus over it's design (of 200A)
Even if we lower the amount consumed, that just lowers the amount coming in from the meter, and we still stay under 200A

SO - with end-feed it's possible to make sure that you never go over that design spec of 200A.
With center-feed it's relatively easy to have it go over spec if you allow >100% of what's spec'd to be input power sources.

That is correct. And since the busbars can't see more current than their rating, the rule
requiring the 2 feeding breakers total not to exceed the bas bar capacity is un necessary.
Conversely, if the 2 feeding breakers total within the busbar capacity, there is no need
to require opposite end feeding. But we still have a belt and suspenders rule regardless.

Bruce Roe

[subdriver97]

So did you find out if you have to pull a permit to upgrade the panel? is that included in the $2500?

A separate permit is not required for the panel upgrade. However, the electrical contractor has to schedule a date for a temporary electricity disconnect with SDGE to do the actual panel installation.

[subdriver97]

Any time a vendor starts to be a wise guy and dictate it is the worng vendor - there are too many out there to choose from.

It wouldn't have been prudent for me to write off this particular vendor on a single point of contention. In every other area, this vendor was tops in terms of quality of workmanship, company history, online reviews, and overall price. This is the vendor that I ended up going with. The sales manager stuck to the $2500 price tag on the service panel upgrade. However, he did lower the overall cost of the system by $700. Whether or not the $700 comes off the service panel or otherwise, it's not important to me where the reduction is allocated.