diy solar systems which are good and which to stay away from

[deck60]

so what panels do you guys use the most

I have heard lots about Canadian solar but what else are good

not into lg the last 2 lg items I bought I had to take back and get another brand

[gte]

I am also interested to know which panels are recommended as well as which micro-inverters?

[dat]

so what panels do you guys use the most

I have heard lots about Canadian solar but what else are good

not into lg the last 2 lg items I bought I had to take back and get another brand

I am new here, but since nobody answers yet, I will answer with what I know. I believe good panels are Sunpower, Kyocera solar, Suniva, LG, Sharp, SolarWorld, and Canadian Solar. The better the panel, the price is more expensive. Each of them has its own advantage and disadvantage. For example, Sunpower claims to be the best panel in the world, but its price is the the most expensive too. SolarWorld is a good panel and the price is good, but the company is not profitable which questions the warranty in the future. I choose Canadian Solar because it is a good and cheapest panel with third party insurance. I also read an old news in April 2014 makes me feel better with my decision.

Major PV energy provider Canadian Solar has been selected to supply 43MW of its CS6P255P modules to the second largest solar power plant project in Japan, according to the company.
The company will supply 168,300 of its 60 cell CS6P255P modules (255Wp) with delivery expected to start in May 2014 and to be completed in February 2015.

[deck60]

I am new here, but since nobody answers yet, I will answer with what I know. I believe good panels are Sunpower, Kyocera solar, Suniva, LG, Sharp, SolarWorld, and Canadian Solar. The better the panel, the price is more expensive. Each of them has its own advantage and disadvantage. For example, Sunpower claims to be the best panel in the world, but its price is the the most expensive too. SolarWorld is a good panel and the price is good, but the company is not profitable which questions the warranty in the future. I choose Canadian Solar because it is a good and cheapest panel with third party insurance. I also read an old news in April 2014 makes me feel better with my decision.

Major PV energy provider Canadian Solar has been selected to supply 43MW of its CS6P255P modules to the second largest solar power plant project in Japan, according to the company.
The company will supply 168,300 of its 60 cell CS6P255P modules (255Wp) with delivery expected to start in May 2014 and to be completed in February 2015.

the contract they got is a big reason why I am leaning towards them myself

[gte]

So then let's build a mock 20000 watt system (I'm very new to this)

Canadian Solar CS6P-255P (255 watts) $240 a panel - 79 panels required for 20000 watts ($20145 in panels) according to this link
Mounts, whether they are 2x4s or a metal rack kit
??? inverters (I can't find very many details on this, how many panels per inverter or if microinverters are reasonably priced or if the Canadian Solar panels come with microinverters)
DC isolator
AC isolator
Miscellaneous wiring, enclosures and connectors
Miscellaneous hardware

What components am I missing?
Do the Canadian Solar panels come with microinverters? I can't seem to find anything that gives great detail about inverter choice.

[gte]

It appears that this 20000 watt kit uses 2 inverters and is $31k, a quick search has those inverters around $2600 dollars a piece (a cost of about $65 per panel)

It requires $1200 in roof mounting hardware, no idea if it requires any additional components or wiring

http://www.wholesalesolar.com/system/solaredge-80-astronergy-panel-gridtie-system.html

It appears to come with the panels, power optimizers and some sort of monitoring software




It'd be really nice to know if the Canadian panels come with a power conditioner or micro-inverter and if the micro-inverter cost can be less than the centralized inverter cost.

Another solar panel cost site

http://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/surveys/free-solar-panel-price-survey/

[bcroe]

It appears that this 20000 watt kit uses 2 inverters and is $31k, a quick search has those inverters around $2600 dollars a piece (a cost of about $65 per panel)

It requires $1200 in roof mounting hardware, no idea if it requires any additional components or wiring

There will be "other" costs before it is working. Copper and hardware for grounding, copper
and maybe a combiner for DC, copper for AC, aluminum struts and stainless steel hardware
if you don't want it to rust solid. A meter or 2. Permit fee(s). Bruce Roe

[foo1bar]

It'd be really nice to know if the Canadian panels come with a power conditioner or micro-inverter

Look at the description/specs for the panel.
If they have something like a built in micro-inverter (or built in power-optimizer) they'll make a big deal out of that.
Vast majority of panels don't have such things built into them.

if the micro-inverter cost can be less than the centralized inverter cost.

Unlikely.

Generally price goes (cheapest to most expensive):
* string inverters
* power optimizers (Solaredge)
* microinverters (enphase)

no idea if it requires any additional components or wiring

Other items on my list:
* tools (torque wrench, cordless drill, cordless impact driver, conduit bender, conduit reamer, saw blade for cutting alum., shingle ripper, $300 for a specialized crimper tool)
* conduit
* conduit clamps
* junction boxes
* conduit flashing
* roofmount flashing (quickmount PV e-mount)
* Stainless steel bolts
* grounding lugs
* grounding panel clips (probably included in kit you were looking at)
* clips to hold wires in place - off roof/ next to panels (probably included in kit you were looking at)
* roof sealant
* ground wire
* circuit breaker (to go into main panel)
* wire from panels to inverter
* wire from inverter to main panel
* upgrade from 100A main panel to 200A main panel and meter (main panel/meter was so outdated it was necessary)
* permit
* reflective labels

And things that if I had a different configuration, might be needed
* subpanel to combine inverter outputs
* DC shutoff
* AC shutoff

There's probably more that I missed. I'm still working on it.

[gte]

Awesome info, thank you.

Do you happen to have a guess on what all of that costa (ballpark)?

Look at the description/specs for the panel.
If they have something like a built in micro-inverter (or built in power-optimizer) they'll make a big deal out of that.
Vast majority of panels don't have such things built into them.



Unlikely.

Generally price goes (cheapest to most expensive):
* string inverters
* power optimizers (Solaredge)
* microinverters (enphase)



Other items on my list:
* tools (torque wrench, cordless drill, cordless impact driver, conduit bender, conduit reamer, saw blade for cutting alum., shingle ripper, $300 for a specialized crimper tool)
* conduit
* conduit clamps
* junction boxes
* conduit flashing
* roofmount flashing (quickmount PV e-mount)
* Stainless steel bolts
* grounding lugs
* grounding panel clips (probably included in kit you were looking at)
* clips to hold wires in place - off roof/ next to panels (probably included in kit you were looking at)
* roof sealant
* ground wire
* circuit breaker (to go into main panel)
* wire from panels to inverter
* wire from inverter to main panel
* upgrade from 100A main panel to 200A main panel and meter (main panel/meter was so outdated it was necessary)
* permit
* reflective labels

And things that if I had a different configuration, might be needed
* subpanel to combine inverter outputs
* DC shutoff
* AC shutoff

There's probably more that I missed. I'm still working on it.

[foo1bar]

Awesome info, thank you.

Do you happen to have a guess on what all of that costa (ballpark)?

~ $19,250 total for my planned setup. (some of which I may have spent anyhow for upgrading the meter/main panel)
Solaredge inverter
31 panels (LG 275W)
8.525kW total nameplate wattage.

[gte]

I appreciate you keeping track of the numbers. How much of the $19250 was not

Panels
Mounts/Rack
Inverters

A quick google looks like the LG 275B3 is about 11000 for 31 of them?
The inverters look to be $2000 for a 10kw module?

Does this sound about right? How does the rest of the costs break down?

~ $19,250 total for my planned setup. (some of which I may have spent anyhow for upgrading the meter/main panel)
Solaredge inverter
31 panels (LG 275W)
8.525kW total nameplate wattage.

[sensij]

I appreciate you keeping track of the numbers. How much of the $19250 was not

Panels
Mounts/Rack
Inverters

A quick google looks like the LG 275B3 is about 11000 for 31 of them?
The inverters look to be $2000 for a 10kw module?

Does this sound about right? How does the rest of the costs break down?

@GTE

You might find that a minimum budget for your DIY solar project is to get a competitive quote from a reputable installer and subtract 30%. This will get you in the ballpark a lot faster than trying to build the bill of materials for your specific installation without prior knowledge of what is required. The price you find published online from "wholesale" suppliers is unlikely to be much less than the price your installer will offer for the same equipment from their distribution network (if at all), even after the installer's markup is included.

Are you pursuing DIY because you have some spare time and want the challenge / pride of installing it yourself? If you are just doing it to save money, I think you may be underestimating the value of the knowledge and experience that a professional will bring to your job.

A good place to start to get a handle on the knowledge involved is to review the applicable codes to a solar installation. The 2005 NEC code relating to PV systems is shared by the administrators of this forum. This may or may not be the code your municipality has adopted, although it is a great example of the level of detail that is required to install the system safely. You will also need to understand how your local PV code interacts with the code of the existing electrical system, since the two do not exist in isolation.

There are a few other cost risks that exist in DIY that are covered in a professionally installed system cost:
1) The cost of improperly assembling the mounting system, and causing damage to your roof.
2) The costs of iterative submittals to your permitting office until all of the details are just right.
3) The costs of having to re-install the wiring because some part did not pass inspection by the AHJ. If you had cut components to a specific length, you would probably need to replace them.
4) If you intend to take advantage of net metering, the costs of hiring an licensed electrician to do the final hookup to your panel. Some utilities will not approve an application unless a licensed contractor is involved.
5) For a system of your size, a panel upgrade is likely, and is not cheap. That is not DIY, period.

There are many, many more risks and potential costs involved in the DIY approach. Solar installations are not "insert slot A into hole B" like kitchen cabinets, for instance. They are not even like adding a new breaker to your panel to run a circuit to your garage to operate the mill you picked up cheap, which although requiring a permit in most jurisdictions, requires much less knowledge and experience to do safely.

If you still intend to DIY... if you go slowly, and ask very specific questions relating to the problems you encounter, you may find that there are some very skilled members of this forum that will be able to help you. If you come in expecting to be handed a BOM, a set of instructions, and a 24/7 help line, you will disappointed. There might still be value in getting proposals from professional installers, since they will have tools to help determine what size the system should be to meet your needs, and ideally, be able to discuss with you the potential costs and benefits of sizing larger or smaller than that.

[SunEagle]

@GTE

You might find that a minimum budget for your DIY solar project is to get a competitive quote from a reputable installer and subtract 30%. This will get you in the ballpark a lot faster than trying to build the bill of materials for your specific installation without prior knowledge of what is required. The price you find published online from "wholesale" suppliers is unlikely to be much less than the price your installer will offer for the same equipment from their distribution network (if at all), even after the installer's markup is included.

Are you pursuing DIY because you have some spare time and want the challenge / pride of installing it yourself? If you are just doing it to save money, I think you may be underestimating the value of the knowledge and experience that a professional will bring to your job.

A good place to start to get a handle on the knowledge involved is to review the applicable codes to a solar installation. The 2005 NEC code relating to PV systems is shared by the administrators of this forum. This may or may not be the code your municipality has adopted, although it is a great example of the level of detail that is required to install the system safely. You will also need to understand how your local PV code interacts with the code of the existing electrical system, since the two do not exist in isolation.

There are a few other cost risks that exist in DIY that are covered in a professionally installed system cost:
1) The cost of improperly assembling the mounting system, and causing damage to your roof.
2) The costs of iterative submittals to your permitting office until all of the details are just right.
3) The costs of having to re-install the wiring because some part did not pass inspection by the AHJ. If you had cut components to a specific length, you would probably need to replace them.
4) If you intend to take advantage of net metering, the costs of hiring an licensed electrician to do the final hookup to your panel. Some utilities will not approve an application unless a licensed contractor is involved.
5) For a system of your size, a panel upgrade is likely, and is not cheap. That is not DIY, period.

There are many, many more risks and potential costs involved in the DIY approach. Solar installations are not "insert slot A into hole B" like kitchen cabinets, for instance. They are not even like adding a new breaker to your panel to run a circuit to your garage to operate the mill you picked up cheap, which although requiring a permit in most jurisdictions, requires much less knowledge and experience to do safely.

If you still intend to DIY... if you go slowly, and ask very specific questions relating to the problems you encounter, you may find that there are some very skilled members of this forum that will be able to help you. If you come in expecting to be handed a BOM, a set of instructions, and a 24/7 help line, you will disappointed. There might still be value in getting proposals from professional instalers, since they will have tools to help determine what size the system should be to meet your needs, and ideally, be able to discuss with you the potential costs and benefits of sizing larger or smaller than that.

+1. Good advice.

[foo1bar]

@GTE
5) For a system of your size, a panel upgrade is likely, and is not cheap. That is not DIY, period.

It's beyond what most DIY'ers want to tackle.
However I just upgraded meter & main panel this summer for my house.

"4) If you intend to take advantage of net metering, the costs of hiring an licensed electrician to do the final hookup to your panel. Some utilities will not approve an application unless a licensed contractor is involved."
Worth finding out the answer to that question.
But it should be stressed this is a *question* - my utility will do net metering with any inspected and permitted install. And that of course includes DIY.
The neighboring utility (which is a much larger utility) does as well.

"2) The costs of iterative submittals to your permitting office until all of the details are just right."
I haven't had to do any iterations, but waiting for permitting was a PITA. (half a day waiting for various people to get the permit issued)
Cost was $297 or so.


"Are you pursuing DIY because you have some spare time and want the challenge / pride of installing it yourself? If you are just doing it to save money, I think you may be underestimating the value of the knowledge and experience that a professional will bring to your job."
How much value do *you* think a 'professional' brings?
The 5 items you listed as cost risks are IMO pretty small issues that aren't justified by the large labor/overhead/profit margins that the solar installers are asking for. My install with an experienced crew of 2 will probably be doable in 2 days.
Add another half-day for permitting, and we're at 4.5 days of labor.
What do you think is a reasonable amount for 4.5 days of skilled labor?
I think it's a lot less than what I'm seeing.
Since it'll just be me, I'm expecting it to take ~3 weekends.

[russ]

The 5 items you listed as cost risks are IMO pretty small issues that aren't justified by the large labor/overhead/profit margins that the solar installers are asking for.

If you are dealing with installers with "large" overhead/profit margins you are going the wrong places. Typically in most areas solar PV is very competitive.