New 4.8KW installation in San Diego just finished

[jd31]

Thanks JPM! You're good at negotiating, I couldn't imagine myself do what you did. I usually feel like I am asking for too much or being too picky and may offend the contractor. How do you get them to agree to terms and clause of penalties without intimidating them? And do you negotiate before the contract signing date and have them already put in their contract or do you do it on the date and just write it down right there? Thanks for your input!

I negotiate for a living (not solar, different field) and you can't be bashful. You don't get what you don't ask for. As for feeling picky, just remember that you and the sales person have opposite goals (you to save money and vice versa). Always good to protect yourself and assume they are not looking out for your best interest.

And I'm not a big fan of shouting matches either so I like the motto: "Speak softly and carry a big stick". Putting a vendor through a RFP, getting multiple quotes, doing research, etc. is a great way to let the process speak for itself. It allows you to politely tell a installer to conform to market or take a hike.

[thejq]

As a procurement professional, I have discerning taste when it comes to sourcing diligence. I put my installer through the wringer too but not to the same extent as you. Nice work!

I'd agree with that. A lot of times, the vendor has a fixed contract, especially if they're bigger and in the business for a long time. They would not change their terms just for you. If a vendor went out of its way to please you, it might not be a not a good sign. In my case, my selected vendor's (> 25 years in electrical business) contract is 10 yr system warranty, 60-day completion, $1K @ signing, $rest at installation, $20% after city inspection. They would not change any of that after my repeated request to shorten the completion date to 30 and 20 yr warranty. They basically told me that's their standard contract, the only thing that's up for negotiation is the total price. On the other hand, I had a smaller solar pure play installer giving me 25 yr systems warranty and 30-day completion and more favorable payment terms. It was a nice surprise when it was completed quicker than expected (see the beginning of this thread for time line). So my point is that as long as you've read and studied the contract to make sure the installer isn't trying to screw you or getting out of their responsibilities, and they're reputable, there's no need to push the envelope too hard.

[J.P.M.]

I negotiate for a living (not solar, different field) and you can't be bashful. You don't get what you don't ask for. As for feeling picky, just remember that you and the sales person have opposite goals (you to save money and vice versa). Always good to protect yourself and assume they are not looking out for your best interest.

And I'm not a big fan of shouting matches either so I like the motto: "Speak softly and carry a big stick". Putting a vendor through a RFP, getting multiple quotes, doing research, etc. is a great way to let the process speak for itself. It allows you to politely tell a installer to conform to market or take a hike.

+1 on most of that. Before I changed careers I was a peddler for slightly less than 10 years and took a pay cut to start an engineering career. I was perhaps OK at negotiating, but never as good at negotiating as some of the real pros who tried to mentor me. Some of them were so good they were scary. I bet jd31 knows the type.

On negotiating, a few things for the back of your mind in no particular order:

It's not personal. It's just business (Michael Corleone).
Expect rejection. It's not a popularity contest.
Smile a lot and mean it.
Think like the other side, figure out what they really want and try to help them make it easier to say yes to your terms.
Remember, both sides want the same thing. Only the reasons and details are different.
Do your homework. Know the answers before you ask the questions.
No style works every time.
Paraphrasing one of jd31's points: You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate.
You'll probably not get everything you want. Sometimes you'll get more than you expected. Sometimes you'll only get what you can barely tolerate.

On multiple bidders. Don't share pricing. First of all, for commodities like solar, the vendors probably know who and where the competition is anyway. Sharing prices (or price matching) only guarantees you'll get $.01 less. Not sharing and you may do better, and not an unimportant point, the vendors will have more respect for you.

[J.P.M.]

As a procurement professional, I have discerning taste when it comes to sourcing diligence. I put my installer through the wringer too but not to the same extent as you. Nice work!

Thank you. I requested proposals from professional outfits, treated them in a respectful, professional manner, expected reciprocal treatment and mostly got it. If it was a wringer, then it was as an exercise in professionalism on their part. I'd already done all the prelim. engineering, sizing/equip. specing. Most of their work had already been done before they knew I was a prospect.

[s_man]

Have learned a lot about negotiation today. Thanks all! If dealers read these they may think we are some kind of consumer protection league

[J.P.M.]

Have learned a lot about negotiation today. Thanks all! If dealers read these they may think we are some kind of consumer protection league

The biggest thing most consumers need protection from is their own mental sloth and resulting ignorance.

[karlf]

The biggest thing most consumers need protection from is their own mental sloth and resulting ignorance.

If they live in San Diego they apparently need to find a way to keep SDGE from jacking up the rates on Tier 1 people too.

Gotta go find some stuff on Twitter to see how we can help put some pressure on SDGE not to take us to the cleaners...

[russ]

If they live in San Diego they apparently need to find a way to keep SDGE from jacking up the rates on Tier 1 people too.

Gotta go find some stuff on Twitter to see how we can help put some pressure on SDGE not to take us to the cleaners...

That certainly should make SGGE shake in it's boots! NOT

[thejq]

If they live in San Diego they apparently need to find a way to keep SDGE from jacking up the rates on Tier 1 people too.

Gotta go find some stuff on Twitter to see how we can help put some pressure on SDGE not to take us to the cleaners...

Yeah, I'm with you. The current tiered rate is already too expensive for many low income families, now with the new proposed 2-tier rates, it's going to be even tougher. I've no idea what CPUC was thinking. I thought the socialist government of CA was supposed to be on the side of the poor -- guess money still talks.

[gvl]

Yeah, I'm with you. The current tiered rate is already too expensive for many low income families, now with the new proposed 2-tier rates, it's going to be even tougher. I've no idea what CPUC was thinking. I thought the socialist government of CA was supposed to be on the side of the poor -- guess money still talks.

Truly poor or camouflaged as such are getting subsidized rates I think and may not be affected as much by the upcoming reform.

[ericf1]

Yeah, I'm with you. The current tiered rate is already too expensive for many low income families, now with the new proposed 2-tier rates, it's going to be even tougher.

I would have no problem with a ONE tier rate. Low income folks already get huge discounts under the CARE program. I also think CARE should only apply to a limited amount of energy, like 200% of baseline.

[karlf]

Yeah, I'm with you. The current tiered rate is already too expensive for many low income families, now with the new proposed 2-tier rates, it's going to be even tougher. I've no idea what CPUC was thinking. I thought the socialist government of CA was supposed to be on the side of the poor -- guess money still talks.

I have an issue with the rate hike for two reasons:


1. SDGE is always going on and on about reducing your use. They push people to become energy efficient, talk about LEDs, more efficient windows, etc.
2. Solar people are partially targeted in this. San Diego's experienced an explosion in solar installs over the last few years. We are targeted because SDGE wants more cash from us.

We did away with all our old school lights and have replaced most CFLs with LEDs. We barely make a blip at night unless we're running the dishwasher and the toaster oven as getting rid of most of the high wattage lights karate chopped our electricity usage. For being so efficient our reward... a higher base bill.

[paris401]

what are u guys payin per kw??... out here on long island, the land of cheap power, last month we paid 17.92 per...

[J.P.M.]

I have an idea: Instead of reporting how much a system produces how about reporting how many kWh a household used per day/month ? Or how much a household's usage was reduced over a period of time ?

[LLN]

I have learned a lot from this tread. We are getting bids for a 4.8KW system and not even close to the pricing you guys got. Can you please PM me the installer you used.

Thank