New 4.8KW installation in San Diego just finished

[russ]

If they live in San Diego they apparently need to find a way to keep SDGE from jacking up the rates on Tier 1 people too.

Gotta go find some stuff on Twitter to see how we can help put some pressure on SDGE not to take us to the cleaners...

That certainly should make SGGE shake in it's boots! NOT

[karlf]

The biggest thing most consumers need protection from is their own mental sloth and resulting ignorance.

If they live in San Diego they apparently need to find a way to keep SDGE from jacking up the rates on Tier 1 people too.

Gotta go find some stuff on Twitter to see how we can help put some pressure on SDGE not to take us to the cleaners...

[J.P.M.]

Have learned a lot about negotiation today. Thanks all! If dealers read these they may think we are some kind of consumer protection league

The biggest thing most consumers need protection from is their own mental sloth and resulting ignorance.

[s_man]

Have learned a lot about negotiation today. Thanks all! If dealers read these they may think we are some kind of consumer protection league

[J.P.M.]

As a procurement professional, I have discerning taste when it comes to sourcing diligence. I put my installer through the wringer too but not to the same extent as you. Nice work!

Thank you. I requested proposals from professional outfits, treated them in a respectful, professional manner, expected reciprocal treatment and mostly got it. If it was a wringer, then it was as an exercise in professionalism on their part. I'd already done all the prelim. engineering, sizing/equip. specing. Most of their work had already been done before they knew I was a prospect.

[J.P.M.]

I negotiate for a living (not solar, different field) and you can't be bashful. You don't get what you don't ask for. As for feeling picky, just remember that you and the sales person have opposite goals (you to save money and vice versa). Always good to protect yourself and assume they are not looking out for your best interest.

And I'm not a big fan of shouting matches either so I like the motto: "Speak softly and carry a big stick". Putting a vendor through a RFP, getting multiple quotes, doing research, etc. is a great way to let the process speak for itself. It allows you to politely tell a installer to conform to market or take a hike.

+1 on most of that. Before I changed careers I was a peddler for slightly less than 10 years and took a pay cut to start an engineering career. I was perhaps OK at negotiating, but never as good at negotiating as some of the real pros who tried to mentor me. Some of them were so good they were scary. I bet jd31 knows the type.

On negotiating, a few things for the back of your mind in no particular order:

It's not personal. It's just business (Michael Corleone).
Expect rejection. It's not a popularity contest.
Smile a lot and mean it.
Think like the other side, figure out what they really want and try to help them make it easier to say yes to your terms.
Remember, both sides want the same thing. Only the reasons and details are different.
Do your homework. Know the answers before you ask the questions.
No style works every time.
Paraphrasing one of jd31's points: You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate.
You'll probably not get everything you want. Sometimes you'll get more than you expected. Sometimes you'll only get what you can barely tolerate.

On multiple bidders. Don't share pricing. First of all, for commodities like solar, the vendors probably know who and where the competition is anyway. Sharing prices (or price matching) only guarantees you'll get $.01 less. Not sharing and you may do better, and not an unimportant point, the vendors will have more respect for you.

[thejq]

As a procurement professional, I have discerning taste when it comes to sourcing diligence. I put my installer through the wringer too but not to the same extent as you. Nice work!

I'd agree with that. A lot of times, the vendor has a fixed contract, especially if they're bigger and in the business for a long time. They would not change their terms just for you. If a vendor went out of its way to please you, it might not be a not a good sign. In my case, my selected vendor's (> 25 years in electrical business) contract is 10 yr system warranty, 60-day completion, $1K @ signing, $rest at installation, $20% after city inspection. They would not change any of that after my repeated request to shorten the completion date to 30 and 20 yr warranty. They basically told me that's their standard contract, the only thing that's up for negotiation is the total price. On the other hand, I had a smaller solar pure play installer giving me 25 yr systems warranty and 30-day completion and more favorable payment terms. It was a nice surprise when it was completed quicker than expected (see the beginning of this thread for time line). So my point is that as long as you've read and studied the contract to make sure the installer isn't trying to screw you or getting out of their responsibilities, and they're reputable, there's no need to push the envelope too hard.

[jd31]

Thanks JPM! You're good at negotiating, I couldn't imagine myself do what you did. I usually feel like I am asking for too much or being too picky and may offend the contractor. How do you get them to agree to terms and clause of penalties without intimidating them? And do you negotiate before the contract signing date and have them already put in their contract or do you do it on the date and just write it down right there? Thanks for your input!

I negotiate for a living (not solar, different field) and you can't be bashful. You don't get what you don't ask for. As for feeling picky, just remember that you and the sales person have opposite goals (you to save money and vice versa). Always good to protect yourself and assume they are not looking out for your best interest.

And I'm not a big fan of shouting matches either so I like the motto: "Speak softly and carry a big stick". Putting a vendor through a RFP, getting multiple quotes, doing research, etc. is a great way to let the process speak for itself. It allows you to politely tell a installer to conform to market or take a hike.

[jd31]

The particulars for sizing, locations and equipment had already been specified in the R.F.P.

I left dates, payment schedule and commission date open as negotiating points at R.F.P., but all vendors also knew of my penalty clause if they missed their date at R.F.P. They also knew they were in a competitive bidding situation and that while low bid was important, quality was more important. The job was also spec'd pretty tight material wise, but with requests for 2 different panels and 2 slightly different array sizes for each mfg.

After I got bids back, I negotiated the payment terms to $1K down at contract signing and balance at commissioning - basically county signoff - not PTO from SDG & E - as the vendor has little control over that. However, that $1K down seemed to be OK with all bidders. I was amenable to progress payments. the bidders wanted none.

One reason I may have had luck on the bidding was I only requested quotes from established electrical contractors who had been in business for some time and were therefore, perhaps familiar with the bidding process. I treated it like a professional transaction and perhaps that helped them do the same.

As a procurement professional, I have discerning taste when it comes to sourcing diligence. I put my installer through the wringer too but not to the same extent as you. Nice work!

[s_man]

The particulars for sizing, locations and equipment had already been specified in the R.F.P.

I left dates, payment schedule and commission date open as negotiating points at R.F.P., but all vendors also knew of my penalty clause if they missed their date at R.F.P. They also knew they were in a competitive bidding situation and that while low bid was important, quality was more important. The job was also spec'd pretty tight material wise, but with requests for 2 different panels and 2 slightly different array sizes for each mfg.

After I got bids back, I negotiated the payment terms to $1K down at contract signing and balance at commissioning - basically county signoff - not PTO from SDG & E - as the vendor has little control over that. However, that $1K down seemed to be OK with all bidders. I was amenable to progress payments. the bidders wanted none.

One reason I may have had luck on the bidding was I only requested quotes from established electrical contractors who had been in business for some time and were therefore, perhaps familiar with the bidding process. I treated it like a professional transaction and perhaps that helped them do the same.

Thanks JPM! You're good at negotiating, I couldn't imagine myself do what you did. I usually feel like I am asking for too much or being too picky and may offend the contractor. How do you get them to agree to terms and clause of penalties without intimidating them? And do you negotiate before the contract signing date and have them already put in their contract or do you do it on the date and just write it down right there? Thanks for your input!

[J.P.M.]

Hi J.P.M,
It's seems you got the contract very well specified on the terms and schedule. If you don't mind could you share the terms you put down. According to my contractor's terms ( I am about to sign next week ), seems I have to pay 1st major part at rack installation and almost full at the time they install the inverter and before city signed off, the last $500 due at city signed off. Does it sound right to you? Thanks

The particulars for sizing, locations and equipment had already been specified in the R.F.P.

I left dates, payment schedule and commission date open as negotiating points at R.F.P., but all vendors also knew of my penalty clause if they missed their date at R.F.P. They also knew they were in a competitive bidding situation and that while low bid was important, quality was more important. The job was also spec'd pretty tight material wise, but with requests for 2 different panels and 2 slightly different array sizes for each mfg.

After I got bids back, I negotiated the payment terms to $1K down at contract signing and balance at commissioning - basically county signoff - not PTO from SDG & E - as the vendor has little control over that. However, that $1K down seemed to be OK with all bidders. I was amenable to progress payments. the bidders wanted none.

One reason I may have had luck on the bidding was I only requested quotes from established electrical contractors who had been in business for some time and were therefore, perhaps familiar with the bidding process. I treated it like a professional transaction and perhaps that helped them do the same.

[s_man]

Just an fyi, my payments are as follows:

$1,000 is due upon signing of the contract
$$,$$$ is due after city signoff
$1,000 is due after PTO is granted

Thanks gvl! I think yours is more reasonable.

[gvl]

Hi J.P.M,
It's seems you got the contract very well specified on the terms and schedule. If you don't mind could you share the terms you put down. According to my contractor's terms ( I am about to sign next week ), seems I have to pay 1st major part at rack installation and almost full at the time they install the inverter and before city signed off, the last $500 due at city signed off. Does it sound right to you? Thanks

Just an fyi, my payments are as follows:

$1,000 is due upon signing of the contract
$$,$$$ is due after city signoff
$1,000 is due after PTO is granted

[s_man]

I apologize for being unclear and assuming the vendor was handling all your paperwork.

Similar to you, I expected and made clear to all bidders on my project that they would be held to the same standards I held my depts. to when I was working. I also made sure all bidders understood my R.F.P. particulars before responding and during negotiation(s), including follow through and payment expectations and conditions. Two items in particular which were part of my R.F.P. and later became part of my contract : The successful vendor didn't get paid until system turn on, and, if they missed the completion date, they paid my electric bill until they completed work as a contract deduct. All bidders advertised and stated verbally to me a priori that they handled all paperwork, so I held them to their word. The project completed 8 days shy of schedule (10/03/13). The county inspec. showed up the following week Fri. (10/11/13). I did call SDG & E the following Tues. after inspec. to check paperwork progress/pass through between the county and SDG & E, and to ensure the vendor was following up. Coincidentally perhaps, my approval letter showed up 2 business days later, 10/17/13. I ceremonially fired up the system at solar noon that day, the proj. eng.. initiated the monitor the next day, and the salesperson showed up 10/21/13 and walked away w/ a check.

Hi J.P.M,
It's seems you got the contract very well specified on the terms and schedule. If you don't mind could you share the terms you put down. According to my contractor's terms ( I am about to sign next week ), seems I have to pay 1st major part at rack installation and almost full at the time they install the inverter and before city signed off, the last $500 due at city signed off. Does it sound right to you? Thanks

[karlf]

LG is definitely a brand you can trust and bank on. Personally I think it deserves the premium of $0.2-0.3/W. Plus I think LG is the only solar manufacture in the world that can claim "carbon free", whatever it implies, it must be good for the environment. I'm with you on not trusting micros, but I'm a geek and I like to see per-panel performance, so I picked SolarEdge which is probably the lesser of the two evil. I'm not sure if running AC 24/7 is a efficient way to "burn" through the SDGE credits. Maybe EV is better a way?

BTW, I think you meant 4MWh (not 4GW).

Yeah mega.

As for AC it was a joke. We will certainly have a surplus and we assumed the kids will use more power as they get older. Eventually we will end up with an EV. Right now there's not an EV made I would consider as a personal car. The i3 is fun to drive but the range/interior size/materials turn me off and the Tesla is too big for what we need. Eventually I'm sure BMW will make a decently ranged EV (200+ miles) that doesn't use questionable interior materials and has space for 4 people like our current car. Seeing the spread of CF to the next gen 7 series has me hopeful CF will find its way to the 3 eventually and then we'll hopefully see more plug-inabilities matched to light weight.