Picking the best rate (NorCal PGE)

[yukit]

My solar system has been working for just over a month now.

I am on the EV-A rate schedule right now since that came out to be the best rate based on the initial estimate.

Now that I have about 6 weeks of actual data, I contacted PG&E to find out if they can compare my actual net electrical usage with E1 (tiered flat rate), E6 (tiered TOU) & EV-A (TOU) rates to get an idea of different rate differences.
I found out PG&E does not offer such service or online tool for comparison.

I installed eGauge with my solar system, so at least I can get hourly sampled data to try to calculate the net charge, but I have not been able to figure out the actual formula (especially for the tiered baseline) to use with a spreadsheet.

I was wondering if anyone figured out how to do this, or found a service to calculate different rates for you.

My last NEM bill was slightly less than $5 so I think I am on the right schedule, but I want to figure out a way to compare.

TIA

[jetfixr]

Boy, that is a rough one. I tried to figure it out and PG&E's rate structure is so convoluted that it is almost impossible. I will be getting my system installed in the next couple of weeks here, so let me know if you can figure it out. I have a friend that has had solar for 3 or 4 years now, he called pg&e and apparently they have a tool that they can run that will tell you the best rate structure for you. Not sure if I would trust them though. They told him he would come out ahead, but just barely, running the E6 TOU rate. You might be able to "game the system" a bit though. Maybe like drop the house to 65 degrees before noon when the electricity is around 12 cents per KWh and close the house up and let the temperatures rise up to around 75 degrees in about 4 or 5 hours, then use the AC sparingly to keep it at 75 degrees using less electricity when they are charging more then 30 cents a KWh during peak hours. Generate more during peak and use more off-peak hours. Interesting idea, but I doubt I would have the discipline to pull it off. PG&E really likes to screw you. I recently moved from Modesto where rates were 16 cents per KWh up to 500 KWh and 18 cents thereafter. Not quite sure why it cost PG&E so much to generate power just 30 miles away. The bulk of my usage is billed at PG&E's tier 3 and 4 where it cost around 33 and 36 cents per KWh.

My solar system has been working for just over a month now.

I am on the EV-A rate schedule right now since that came out to be the best rate based on the initial estimate.

Now that I have about 6 weeks of actual data, I contacted PG&E to find out if they can compare my actual net electrical usage with E1 (tiered flat rate), E6 (tiered TOU) & EV-A (TOU) rates to get an idea of different rate differences.
I found out PG&E does not offer such service or online tool for comparison.

I installed eGauge with my solar system, so at least I can get hourly sampled data to try to calculate the net charge, but I have not been able to figure out the actual formula (especially for the tiered baseline) to use with a spreadsheet.

I was wondering if anyone figured out how to do this, or found a service to calculate different rates for you.

My last NEM bill was slightly less than $5 so I think I am on the right schedule, but I want to figure out a way to compare.

TIA

[J.P.M.]

Boy, that is a rough one. I tried to figure it out and PG&E's rate structure is so convoluted that it is almost impossible. I will be getting my system installed in the next couple of weeks here, so let me know if you can figure it out. I have a friend that has had solar for 3 or 4 years now, he called pg&e and apparently they have a tool that they can run that will tell you the best rate structure for you. Not sure if I would trust them though. They told him he would come out ahead, but just barely, running the E6 TOU rate. You might be able to "game the system" a bit though. Maybe like drop the house to 65 degrees before noon when the electricity is around 12 cents per KWh and close the house up and let the temperatures rise up to around 75 degrees in about 4 or 5 hours, then use the AC sparingly to keep it at 75 degrees using less electricity when they are charging more then 30 cents a KWh during peak hours. Generate more during peak and use more off-peak hours. Interesting idea, but I doubt I would have the discipline to pull it off. PG&E really likes to screw you. I recently moved from Modesto where rates were 16 cents per KWh up to 500 KWh and 18 cents thereafter. Not quite sure why it cost PG&E so much to generate power just 30 miles away. The bulk of my usage is billed at PG&E's tier 3 and 4 where it cost around 33 and 36 cents per KWh.

What you describe can/does work and becomes easier w/programmable thermostat. It does work, but hard to quantify improvements w/out knowledge of rate structure. Rate structures are complicated and, FWIW, the only way I've found to make sense of them is the hard way. Your situation is different from the person next door.

[yukit]

I was really curious why PG&E's rate estimator (before switching to NEM) would recommend EV rate. My solar installer did as well, but he admitted that their model makes a lot of assumptions since they cannot know the actual usage pattern to fit the TOU.

I think EV-A makes sense if you can avoid consuming power majority of the peak period (2-9pm). I am usually net positive between 9am-7pm giving me a good credit for the rest of the day, but most of electric consumption happens between 7-11pm anyways.

EV-A is the easiest to model since you don't need to deal with the tiered rates, though it may be simple once you figure out how the formula works.
The main problem I have with the EV-A rate is figuring out the minimum charge. According to eGauge, I generated more power than I consumed, but my electric bill wasn't zero.

PG&E does allow you to switch & switch back once without getting locked in for 12 month. If I cannot get a reasonable comparison, I may try to switch to E-6 for the month June or July to compare against the EV-A rate, but as JPM said that may not be a fair comparison anyways.

I am not trying to game the system, but have enough info to pick a reasonable plan now so I don't worry about the rates for the next few years.
There maybe a business opportunity for such a service, but I don't know what kind of raw data you can get from the utility companies.

[J.P.M.]

I was really curious why PG&E's rate estimator (before switching to NEM) would recommend EV rate. My solar installer did as well, but he admitted that their model makes a lot of assumptions since they cannot know the actual usage pattern to fit the TOU.

I think EV-A makes sense if you can avoid consuming power majority of the peak period (2-9pm). I am usually net positive between 9am-7pm giving me a good credit for the rest of the day, but most of electric consumption happens between 7-11pm anyways.

EV-A is the easiest to model since you don't need to deal with the tiered rates, though it may be simple once you figure out how the formula works.
The main problem I have with the EV-A rate is figuring out the minimum charge. According to eGauge, I generated more power than I consumed, but my electric bill wasn't zero.

PG&E does allow you to switch & switch back once without getting locked in for 12 month. If I cannot get a reasonable comparison, I may try to switch to E-6 for the month June or July to compare against the EV-A rate, but as JPM said that may not be a fair comparison anyways.

I am not trying to game the system, but have enough info to pick a reasonable plan now so I don't worry about the rates for the next few years.
There maybe a business opportunity for such a service, but I don't know what kind of raw data you can get from the utility companies.

1.) Nothing wrong w/ gaming the system as long as you know the system thoroughly enough to not shoot yourself in the foot.

2.) PG & E wouldn't allow you to back out so easily if it were not mandated by the CPUC.

3.) Pretty much regardless of what you do to pick a rate now, rates will change a fair amount more than a few times over the next few yrs.

[solardreamer]

What is the result? Did you end up trying E-6? I am in similar situation and wondering if E-6 would be better than EV-A. It seems to me if you charge EV during off-peak hours then EV-A is likely to be less expensive.

I was really curious why PG&E's rate estimator (before switching to NEM) would recommend EV rate. My solar installer did as well, but he admitted that their model makes a lot of assumptions since they cannot know the actual usage pattern to fit the TOU.

I think EV-A makes sense if you can avoid consuming power majority of the peak period (2-9pm). I am usually net positive between 9am-7pm giving me a good credit for the rest of the day, but most of electric consumption happens between 7-11pm anyways.

EV-A is the easiest to model since you don't need to deal with the tiered rates, though it may be simple once you figure out how the formula works.
The main problem I have with the EV-A rate is figuring out the minimum charge. According to eGauge, I generated more power than I consumed, but my electric bill wasn't zero.

PG&E does allow you to switch & switch back once without getting locked in for 12 month. If I cannot get a reasonable comparison, I may try to switch to E-6 for the month June or July to compare against the EV-A rate, but as JPM said that may not be a fair comparison anyways.

I am not trying to game the system, but have enough info to pick a reasonable plan now so I don't worry about the rates for the next few years.
There maybe a business opportunity for such a service, but I don't know what kind of raw data you can get from the utility companies.

[Yaryman]

What is the result? Did you end up trying E-6? I am in similar situation and wondering if E-6 would be better than EV-A.
It seems to me if you charge EV during off-peak hours then EV-A is likely to be less expensive.

You can use the tools at pvoutput.org to create a nice simulation of your use and power generation.

http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?23143-What-is-next-after-NEM&p=175421&viewfull=1#post175421

Just based on the nature of the beast, since PG&E is closing the E-6 program at the first of the year and replacing it with a less generous one,
it just seems logical the E-6 might be the way to go. Of course as with all things, your mileage may vary.

[mikenmar]

Good luck trying to get PG&E to help you with any of this. My experience in going solar with PG&E has been absolutely dismal so far.

Just try calling them on the phone, for example. You'll get shunted over to the solar department, which is only open during work hours with a 30-45 minute wait time.

And so far, their billing practices have been FUBAR. Missing data, wrong bill totals, incomprehensible data, you name it.

All their advertising claiming to be pro-solar is downright fraudulent.

[Yaryman]

Good luck trying to get PG&E to help you with any of this. My experience in going solar with PG&E has been absolutely dismal so far.

Just try calling them on the phone, for example. You'll get shunted over to the solar department, which is only open during work hours with a 30-45 minute wait time.

And so far, their billing practices have been FUBAR. Missing data, wrong bill totals, incomprehensible data, you name it.

All their advertising claiming to be pro-solar is downright fraudulent.

PG&E likes solar. They want all the electricity you can generate.

They just want to pay you MUCH LESS than market rate.

PG&E wants your solar power to become profitable for PG&E.

[youngesttim]

E-6 while it lasts

I think E-6 has some definite advantages for offsetting Net Peak & Net Part Peak usage with production...

My installer suggested it...

PG&E likes solar. They want all the electricity you can generate.

They just want to pay you MUCH LESS than market rate.

PG&E wants your solar power to become profitable for PG&E.

[youngesttim]

NEM Charges.jpgNEM Summary.jpgE-6 SB residential time-of-use service has been working great for us since May, especially for production and having negative peak and partial peak usage...E-6 while it last...We ran the A/C a lot this Summer too...

PG&E likes solar. They want all the electricity you can generate.

They just want to pay you MUCH LESS than market rate.

PG&E wants your solar power to become profitable for PG&E.