NorCal quote ready to go with sungevity

[prhamilton]

I've collected a several proposals from local guys and big guys. After all is said and done I am thinking the sungevity prepaid lease makes the most sense.

I am getting a 7kW-DC system with 28 ET 250W panels and 6kW power-one inverter. No complicated install issues.

Quoted system price is 27K or $3.86/W.

Option 1 - pre-paid lease $15,258 or $2.18/W
Option 2 - cash after incentives $18,902 or $2.70/W

A couple other quotes get me to $3.65/W before incentives. No other quotes got me under $2.50 after incentives.

From reading recent posts I understand that I should be targeting $3.40/W before incentives. But that pre-paid lease after incentives still seems lower like a very good deal. Is sungevity holding that purchase price high to help maximize all their tax and incentive savings? If I take the standard federal tax credit off the $3.40 my $2.18 still looks pretty good and I can't find anyone selling for $3.40 in northern california.

Any pearls of wisdom before I pull the trigger with a sungevity pre-paid?

Peter

[Itsme]

I've collected a several proposals from local guys and big guys. After all is said and done I am thinking the sungevity prepaid lease makes the most sense.

I am getting a 7kW-DC system with 28 ET 250W panels and 6kW power-one inverter. No complicated install issues.

Quoted system price is 27K or $3.86/W.

Option 1 - pre-paid lease $15,258 or $2.18/W
Option 2 - cash after incentives $18,902 or $2.70/W

A couple other quotes get me to $3.65/W before incentives. No other quotes got me under $2.50 after incentives.

From reading recent posts I understand that I should be targeting $3.40/W before incentives. But that pre-paid lease after incentives still seems lower like a very good deal. Is sungevity holding that purchase price high to help maximize all their tax and incentive savings? If I take the standard federal tax credit off the $3.40 my $2.18 still looks pretty good and I can't find anyone selling for $3.40 in northern california.

Any pearls of wisdom before I pull the trigger with a sungevity pre-paid?

Peter

Peter, do you have an electric car?

[slopoke]

I've collected a several proposals from local guys and big guys. After all is said and done I am thinking the sungevity prepaid lease makes the most sense.

I am getting a 7kW-DC system with 28 ET 250W panels and 6kW power-one inverter. No complicated install issues.

Quoted system price is 27K or $3.86/W.

Option 1 - pre-paid lease $15,258 or $2.18/W
Option 2 - cash after incentives $18,902 or $2.70/W

A couple other quotes get me to $3.65/W before incentives. No other quotes got me under $2.50 after incentives.

From reading recent posts I understand that I should be targeting $3.40/W before incentives. But that pre-paid lease after incentives still seems lower like a very good deal. Is sungevity holding that purchase price high to help maximize all their tax and incentive savings? If I take the standard federal tax credit off the $3.40 my $2.18 still looks pretty good and I can't find anyone selling for $3.40 in northern california.

Any pearls of wisdom before I pull the trigger with a sungevity pre-paid?

Peter

$3.65 is not a bad price, I'm in Livermore and settled on $3.75 per watt before incentives.

You need to look at the restrictions you will have with a lease, such as if you sell your house. If you plan on keeping your house for the duration of the lease, I guess you don't have to worry. But things and situations change and if they do, a prospective buyer may not want to assume the lease. That is one big reason I opted to buy.

[JohnInSoCal]

pre-paid lease is also one of the options I am looking at, so far it appears to be the cheapest. I'm not sure that I understand the the downsides to pre-paid lease, can somebody elaborate ? For standard lease there are many, escelators, selling the house the person has to assume the lease, etc. But on a pre-paid lease if you sell the house the new buyer just has to keep the panels on the roof and gets to enjoy all the free electricity that the panels generate (assuming net metering). I would think it would be a selling point on the house, nearly the same as if I purchased the panels outright and left them on the roof for the next home owner.

[prhamilton]

No electric car yet. System size is going to replace close to 100% our current usage to there is definitely room to add a car.

Pre-paid lease subsidy seems to be the biggest variable in pricing ranging from $0.15 to $0.50 per watt discount over the cash price. I am told that pre-paid lease offers a depreciation benefit to the lease holder with a present value of about 10% of the purchase price over and above the federal tax credit. Each company decides how much of that they want to share with you or keep for themselves.

I thought this article was pretty good on the solar leasing, http://www.pv-tech.org/guest_blog/th..._solar_leasing. The point of view of the article is that tax advantages of solar leasing is an unintended subsidy and represents a corporate tax loophole that should be closed. I believe Solar City is currently being investigate by the IRS for exploiting this loophole too aggressively.

The pre-paid lease if fully transferable on sale. There is always a risk doing any kind of home improvement that you could hurt the home value to some buyers. When I was looking at homes with 5-10 year old solar on the roof, I thought negative even though there was probably some positive present value. I think that applies to all solar installs, lease or not. I suppose there is a little more complexity with a lease that might turnoff some buyers but with 60% of new solar purchases coming on leases this is quickly becoming the norm not the exception. Anyway, we just bought the house and plan to stay for awhile.

[pleppik]

I thought this article was pretty good on the solar leasing, http://www.pv-tech.org/guest_blog/th..._solar_leasing. The point of view of the article is that tax advantages of solar leasing is an unintended subsidy and represents a corporate tax loophole that should be closed. I believe Solar City is currently being investigate by the IRS for exploiting this loophole too aggressively.

Interesting article. I don't know the first thing about the solar leasing arrangements, but the gist of the article seems to be that (a) the owner/builders of the leased systems are able to get tax benefits through depreciation not allowed for residential owners, and (b) in order to maximize those tax benefits, they are exaggerating the costs of building the systems for tax purposes.

Point (a) is certainly true, and has always been the case. If a business buys a car, computer, building, or solar panel, the business gets to deduct the cost of that capital investment over a period of years as a business expense. This is nothing new and entirely proper as long as corporate taxes are based on profits rather than gross revenue.

Point (b) is more problematic. If true, then this is approaching, and possibly crossing, the line of tax fraud. There might be some "soft costs" which can be allocated to different projects to maximize tax benefits, or interlocking agreements for multiple projects, but that starts to get really dodgy. For example, every company has administrative overhead which can be allocated to different projects. But if the solar installer preferentially assigned that overhead to leased projects rather than sold projects (thus inflating the cost of the lease projects and earning more profit on the installations which were sold outright) you might be able to get an accountant to sign off on it, but the IRS won't appreciate it.

File this under "things to watch…"

[J.P.M.]

Interesting article. I don't know the first thing about the solar leasing arrangements, but the gist of the article seems to be that (a) the owner/builders of the leased systems are able to get tax benefits through depreciation not allowed for residential owners, and (b) in order to maximize those tax benefits, they are exaggerating the costs of building the systems for tax purposes.

Point (a) is certainly true, and has always been the case. If a business buys a car, computer, building, or solar panel, the business gets to deduct the cost of that capital investment over a period of years as a business expense. This is nothing new and entirely proper as long as corporate taxes are based on profits rather than gross revenue.

Point (b) is more problematic. If true, then this is approaching, and possibly crossing, the line of tax fraud. There might be some "soft costs" which can be allocated to different projects to maximize tax benefits, or interlocking agreements for multiple projects, but that starts to get really dodgy. For example, every company has administrative overhead which can be allocated to different projects. But if the solar installer preferentially assigned that overhead to leased projects rather than sold projects (thus inflating the cost of the lease projects and earning more profit on the installations which were sold outright) you might be able to get an accountant to sign off on it, but the IRS won't appreciate it.

File this under "things to watch…"

IRS/Solar City investigation has been with us for some years now. Some think Solar City got caught w/its hand in the cookie jar.

[Itsme]

No electric car yet. System size is going to replace close to 100% our current usage to there is definitely room to add a car.

The reason i asked about the electric car is, that based on your system size i assume that your electric bill is more than ~$130 per month for a rolling 12 month average. There is a non-profit in the South Bay area, that can take on a homeowner whose electric bill is under $130 per month over the last year's average, OR, they have an electric car in the household. This non-profit relies on an employee contractor lead and community volunteers, so the install takes a bit longer...but all work is done well, and city/utility approved. Their pricing for outright purchase, i found, was equivalent to prepaid lease from Sungevity. They do not do any leases, or financing.

I am going thru an install right now with them at my home...8 of the 22 panels (REC 260W), & the inline inverter (Sunnyboy 5000TL), have been installed this past weekend; the rest will go up next weekend. As they rely on community volunteers, most of the work does happen on weekends. Their waiting list seems long, as it took 3 months for me to get scheduled. To get an idea on my price per kw...for a 5.72 KW system with a string inverter, mine is about $3.15 pre-fed credit, and $2.21 after the 30% Fed credit incentive; and that included the electrical panel upgrade costs (I needed to go from a 100 amp to a 200 amp.)

http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?14224-Looking-for-price-sanity-check-in-San-Jose

Will let you know how my experience goes.

Thanks

[prhamilton]

I google'ed around and found the organization you are talking about. Looks very cool, saw an article in SJ Mercury about their 100th install last month. It would be great to hear about the experience.

[Itsme]

I google'ed around and found the organization you are talking about. Looks very cool, saw an article in SJ Mercury about their 100th install last month. It would be great to hear about the experience.

It is going well so far; zero issues. But we have some ways to go; install should be complete by tomorrow; they have already submitted the interconnection application. Hopefully City inspections next week, and PGE thereafter; interconnection takes a month, I am told. Ping me in a month, and i can report back. Thanks

[Itsme]

It is going well so far; zero issues. But we have some ways to go; install should be complete by tomorrow; they have already submitted the interconnection application. Hopefully City inspections next week, and PGE thereafter; interconnection takes a month, I am told. Ping me in a month, and i can report back. Thanks

The install went flawlessly; the system is up and running. Produced 32 kwh yesterday, and 31 kwh today. 5.72 KW system in San Jose. Now waiting for City Inspections this friday, and then interconnection from PGE in a couple of weeks....with EV-A plan (not E-6). I would recommend this non-profit...as long as you are patient....

[silversaver]

The install went flawlessly; the system is up and running. Produced 32 kwh yesterday, and 31 kwh today. 5.72 KW system in San Jose. Now waiting for City Inspections this friday, and then interconnection from PGE in a couple of weeks....with EV-A plan (not E-6). I would recommend this non-profit...as long as you are patient....

Is that for low income? or no requirement, just wait?

PS. got it "homeowner whose electric bill is under $130 per month over the last year's average, OR, they have an electric car in the household"

[Itsme]

Is that for low income? or no requirement, just wait?

PS. got it "homeowner whose electric bill is under $130 per month over the last year's average, OR, they have an electric car in the household"

Yes, that is correct.
Best

[wwu123]

I google'ed around and found the organization you are talking about. Looks very cool, saw an article in SJ Mercury about their 100th install last month. It would be great to hear about the experience.

This nonprofit also did my install in November, as well as a neighbor whose array I look out on a few weeks before mine. I think they've done more of their installs in my municipality than any other town.

They are really on the up and up, and were the only ones who could make PV viable for my situation, given my low $100/mo electric bills (majority in Tier 1) and severe afternoon site shading. Who else will actually invoice $1000 less than the signed contract, because the job ended up being simpler than expected? I didn't have any complicated electrical upgrades, but my install did include Enphase microinverters (due to the shading) and included Envoy monitoring, all for $2.79/watt before credits and $1.95 after tax credits.... They actually proposed a slightly larger system, which would have made it even cheaper per watt, I shouldn't have but I ended up having them size it down a bit for mostly aesthetic panel layout reasons.

[Itsme]

This nonprofit also did my install in November, as well as a neighbor whose array I look out on a few weeks before mine. I think they've done more of their installs in my municipality than any other town.

They are really on the up and up, and were the only ones who could make PV viable for my situation, given my low $100/mo electric bills (majority in Tier 1) and severe afternoon site shading. Who else will actually invoice $1000 less than the signed contract, because the job ended up being simpler than expected? I didn't have any complicated electrical upgrades, but my install did include Enphase microinverters (due to the shading) and included Envoy monitoring, all for $2.79/watt before credits and $1.95 after tax credits.... They actually proposed a slightly larger system, which would have made it even cheaper per watt, I shouldn't have but I ended up having them size it down a bit for mostly aesthetic panel layout reasons.

You must be in PA.

You got a good deal for micro-inverters. Am assuming that you got REC panels.

I have a 5.72 KW system; and costs are about $1.85 per KW after the incentive; line inverter. BUT, I had to do a panel upgrade...to get a larger system...so that set me back $2500...