Itemized solar quotes?

[Mexrunner]

So I've been researching solar for awhile now and have finally decided to go with a ground mount system. My question is, I got a quote from one company so far and have talked to three others. The problem I have is every time I ask for an itemized quote they get silent or just flat tell me they don't give itemized quotes. To me this seems unreal every business I know gives itemized quotes. Is it really to much to ask and receive a list of what your paying for beyond their typical, these panels and these inverters for this much.
Thanks

[Volusiano]

I can't see where there'd be any upside for them to give you itemized quotes, so why should they? They'd be giving away competitive details of their cost breakdown, and it can only be used against them to pick apart their quote vs competitors' quotes, to the buyer's advantage. If I were a contractor, I'd just tell my buyer that the bottom line is the cost per kw from the quote, and that's all they need to know.

Even solar wholesalers may quote you a whole system at a final cost and not itemize everything inside that system, unless you buy individual parts from them to assemble your own package.

Established industries like auto repair don't always give itemized quotes either. Yeah, for a repair they most likely do, but for special packaged deals for example like a 30K miles service package that costs $xxxx, they may tell you that it includes tune up, belt change, fluid change, etc. but they wouldn't break down that $xxx cost into an itemized list with individual costs for you.

[SunEagle]

I would expect at least an equipment breakdown of panels, inverter and such but I wouldn't expect for the contractor to give you even a price for all of the materials and a price for all of the labor. That is too much detail for you to work with other Contractors to get their price down.

Most of the quotes that people post here list the major parts, system DC kw rating, expected yearly kWh production, install cost and estimated rebates. You can then calculate a $/kw cost for the install and an estimated $/kw cost after all rebates. Based on those costs and make of hardware is a pretty good way of comparing quotes.

[pleppik]

I, too, have not gotten itemized quotes. All the quotes I got were based on $ per watt plus a couple of pass-through items like permit fees.

One good reason to have an itemized quote is if your state charges sales tax on the hardware but not labor. In that case you'll need to at least have the hardware portion broken out so you can show that the sales tax was properly calculated.

One good reason not to have an itemized quote is that it's more consumer-friendly. The contractor is making assumptions about how much he'll have to spend on the modules, inverters, labor, etc., and some of those markets are very fluid. If he can't get the panels at the price he expected, or if he hires a bunch of slackers who take too long to do the job, a flat-price quote protects you.

[Mexrunner]

As a customer my goal is to be able to get the best system for a good price. This means I always request an itemized quote for anything I hire out, so that i can scrutinize and be knowledgeable about how im spending my money. If they're not willing to provide one when asked ive found its usually because their hiding something. I also don't understand how company's can come and say that it's a flat rate per a watt and doesn't matter if its 2kw or 10kw, this makes no sense since things are more often then not cheaper and faster when done on a larger scale.

[Volusiano]

As a customer my goal is to be able to get the best system for a good price. This means I always request an itemized quote for anything I hire out, so that i can scrutinize and be knowledgeable about how im spending my money. If they're not willing to provide one when asked ive found its usually because their hiding something. I also don't understand how company's can come and say that it's a flat rate per a watt and doesn't matter if its 2kw or 10kw, this makes no sense since things are more often then not cheaper and faster when done on a larger scale.

Of course if every customer had their way, they would all want itemized quotes, me included. Of course they're hiding something, but it's not necessarily because they're liars and cheaters. They're just protecting their interest and profit and trade secrets, just like you would probably do the same thing for your business.

For example, maybe they have a good source that gives them special discounts on panels and if they itemize the panel cost to you, they'd be revealing that they have a lower price than their competitors because of that edge. Then if you take it and share it with their competitors, asking why their competitors have higher panel prices, then that'd tip their hands and now their competitors know that they have a low price source for panels somewhere.

So while I'd prefer to get itemized quotes myself, I respect it if they prefer not to give me itemized quotes and just the final system price.

As for quoting you a flat rate per kw no matter what size system it is, I'm sure not all contractors are like that. If you don't like the fact that they do that, then tell them yourself, and that you'll be looking for other vendors who can give you better rates for larger system sizes. It's a free market so it's your prerogative not to like the way they give your quote, and tell them so. If it's a competitive industry then that should force them to adjust, or else they'll lose your business. But if they know they're competitive, then they may stand firm and you may eventually go back to them anyway if you can't find anyone else that operates differently more to your liking.

[russ]

For example, maybe they have a good source that gives them special discounts on panels

With an itemized quote many people will try to cherry pick the list - I would expect it is more headache than it is worth to the installer.

[silversaver]

Buy a PC from Dell, they will give you general info of your system. Itemized break down? Are you kidding me?

The installer will tell you what panels, inverter and racking system they use. I wonder which business offering you itemized break down? buying a hamburger and asking for an itemized break down?

My suggestion is buying your own system, hire the installer base on hourly wage then you can itemized your own cost! Come back here when your solar system installed and share with us your itemized cost. That will be really interesting.

[Wy_White_Wolf]

When you buy a car do they give you an itemized list of what everything in the car cost?

No, Just base price and options on top of that.

They should supply a list of major componets but not a list of what each componet cost and if they have options on top of that. Monitoring might be an option so it would be shown as an addition cost over the base system.

WWW

[MGE]

Here's another idea. Being an Electrical Contractor for a number of years here in SD nobody will give you there actual cost, not gonna happen. The best thing for you to do is give them an itemized list of panels, inverters etc. of what you need for the job so you can compare apples to apples. Just remember that if you forget something or add something from that list there will be an additional cost. Don't forget any demo that is needed, panel upgrade, conduit, wiring, breakers, permits, plans etc. Its a big list so be as thorough as you can be for the best comparison. Just remember that they will give you ONE price for the job stated. Good Luck.

[CaliforniaDon]

OK, this same issue has been driving me crazy (and frustrated). I now have 5 quotes from 5 different companies, and it is feeling a lot like a scam. Basically it is "Gee, look how much you'll save in electricity, so you won't mind if we hide a bunch of profit and fees from you and just quote you a total price." And all the analagies that people give are not relevant or have holes. (This is NOT like a car, where it is all built at the factory. Or if it were like a car, it is as if when you go to the lot they say "Oh, we are going to charge you related to MPG (or by weight) or something ridiculous like that!).

This IS like a water heater installation, or a bathroom remodel, etc. It is HOME IMPROVEMENT work, which consists of 4 main components: Materials, labor, permits, and profit.


Yes, like others I have directly asked installers to break down their prices. And they all refuse, citing a bunch of mumbo jumbo like "acquisition costs, engineering" etc. with a bit of a sly smile. Or they will say that solar installation companies make small margins (even though there are about 100 in our city alone all jumping for business...).

And of course, they all send out guys to my house to spend 1-2 hours explaining how great it is, how they are honest, and don't worry about anything (but then hide all their costs and charges from me...). You know that whenever a company sends sales people out to your house that the price is jacked up.

So here is the deal, I am getting quotes of around $25k - $27k for the system installed. But then I went on the internet and found I can buy the components (retail price, delivered to my driveway) for about $10k - $12k. Plus $500 for a permit. Now even if they paid full price and then paid a 3 man crew $50 per hour to install it for 2 days (for about $2400) we are up to about $15k. Normal general contractors then add in 20% for their profit. So we are up to about $18k (which includes a $3k profit plus any markup/profit on the equipment if they buy it wholesale). So why is it appearing that their profit is over $12k on a <$14k cost to them?

And, obviously, the more they hide it the more suspicious I become.

The second problem is that ANY modifications you make then go into some magic black box, and then out spits a new total amount. For example, let's say you want to install 20 panels of one brand at 260W. But then you ask for another brand that is more efficient at 300W. (And you KNOW that none of the other equipment needs to be changed, such as inverters, etc.). Doing a little research, you find that the better panels cost about $100 more each. So your quote should go up $2,000 right? Of course not! Because they plug it into their nifty "price per kW" black box and out spits...$3500 more! Why? Because you chose better and more efficient panels!

What happens is it leads to a ton of emails back and forth as you try to determine what various options you can choose and the costs (running wires through the attic verses an ugly conduit on your roof, Enphase verses SolarEdge inverters, 22 panels of one brand verses 18 of another, etc. And building a spreadsheet as I try to sort out what it all means, and the trade-offs.

And the weirdest thing is when I ask for a change, I'm quoted a response in price per kW. Huh? For example, one brand/type of inverter verses another is 10cents/kW. What?

Now, I've been in sales, marketing, engineering and done enough home improvement project and hired contractors to figure out what is going on. They are milking the "energy savings" cow as much as they can. They want to tie all their profit and costs into something that they can then directly relate to these supposed future cost savings. They keep saying "don't look over here (at the cost and pricing) keep looking at this little shiny object that we keep dangling in front of your face".

As some have mentioned, they are not going to reveal their cost models unless they have to. And it doesn't appear anyone is making them do it. I have a feeling the government is looking the other way because it is "green energy" and therefore a noble cause (imagine the outrage if an entire industry was doing this type of pricing, and all acting together in the same manner...). My next door neighbor changed the windows on his house (existing ones for new ones, with no changes) and the city charged him $1200 for a permit. But the permit for a complicated solar panel system, mounted on your roof, feeding high voltage electricity back through the electrical panel? Just $350. Obviously, things aren't treated the same down at city hall! And I have a feeling the government is just letting these guys get by with whatever profit strategy they want. (Hey, the government could cut down their subsidies if they just forced these guys to start doing itemized pricing and revealing their scheme!)

Unfortunately, the consumer and (in many cases) the grid as a whole suffers. Because if the installers were willing to allow me to upgrade my panels at his cost with standard margin (as long as it did not involve extra equipment or installation), then everyone would likely be upgrading to more efficient panels and generating more electricity. Instead of offsetting 80% of your power with cheap 260W panels, it is much better to offset 95%+ with better 320W panels if the consumer could just pay the real price difference.

It appears the only thing to do is to try to drive down their total price by pitting about 4 of these guys against each other. But unfortunately, they probably all go to the same bar for drinks after work and talk about how they'll work together to keep the pricing high while they milk this pricing scheme for as long as they can.

[sensij]

Feel better now?

If you start a new thread in which you share where you are at, how much power you consume and intend to offset, and what the installation situation is like (panel orientation, shade, etc), you may be able to get a good idea of what kind of pricing to expect. Around here in San Diego, it seems that something around $2 / W is typical for DIY and $3.50 / W for turn-key. Those prices could move up or down depending on the specifics involved.

If you haven't found it already, check out PVWatts... a great tool to help reduce the fog of war.

[J.P.M.]

OK, this same issue has been driving me crazy (and frustrated). I now have 5 quotes from 5 different companies, and it is feeling a lot like a scam. Basically it is "Gee, look how much you'll save in electricity, so you won't mind if we hide a bunch of profit and fees from you and just quote you a total price." And all the analagies that people give are not relevant or have holes. (This is NOT like a car, where it is all built at the factory. Or if it were like a car, it is as if when you go to the lot they say "Oh, we are going to charge you related to MPG (or by weight) or something ridiculous like that!).

This IS like a water heater installation, or a bathroom remodel, etc. It is HOME IMPROVEMENT work, which consists of 4 main components: Materials, labor, permits, and profit.


Yes, like others I have directly asked installers to break down their prices. And they all refuse, citing a bunch of mumbo jumbo like "acquisition costs, engineering" etc. with a bit of a sly smile. Or they will say that solar installation companies make small margins (even though there are about 100 in our city alone all jumping for business...).

And of course, they all send out guys to my house to spend 1-2 hours explaining how great it is, how they are honest, and don't worry about anything (but then hide all their costs and charges from me...). You know that whenever a company sends sales people out to your house that the price is jacked up.

So here is the deal, I am getting quotes of around $25k - $27k for the system installed. But then I went on the internet and found I can buy the components (retail price, delivered to my driveway) for about $10k - $12k. Plus $500 for a permit. Now even if they paid full price and then paid a 3 man crew $50 per hour to install it for 2 days (for about $2400) we are up to about $15k. Normal general contractors then add in 20% for their profit. So we are up to about $18k (which includes a $3k profit plus any markup/profit on the equipment if they buy it wholesale). So why is it appearing that their profit is over $12k on a <$14k cost to them?

And, obviously, the more they hide it the more suspicious I become.

The second problem is that ANY modifications you make then go into some magic black box, and then out spits a new total amount. For example, let's say you want to install 20 panels of one brand at 260W. But then you ask for another brand that is more efficient at 300W. (And you KNOW that none of the other equipment needs to be changed, such as inverters, etc.). Doing a little research, you find that the better panels cost about $100 more each. So your quote should go up $2,000 right? Of course not! Because they plug it into their nifty "price per kW" black box and out spits...$3500 more! Why? Because you chose better and more efficient panels!

What happens is it leads to a ton of emails back and forth as you try to determine what various options you can choose and the costs (running wires through the attic verses an ugly conduit on your roof, Enphase verses SolarEdge inverters, 22 panels of one brand verses 18 of another, etc. And building a spreadsheet as I try to sort out what it all means, and the trade-offs.

And the weirdest thing is when I ask for a change, I'm quoted a response in price per kW. Huh? For example, one brand/type of inverter verses another is 10cents/kW. What?

Now, I've been in sales, marketing, engineering and done enough home improvement project and hired contractors to figure out what is going on. They are milking the "energy savings" cow as much as they can. They want to tie all their profit and costs into something that they can then directly relate to these supposed future cost savings. They keep saying "don't look over here (at the cost and pricing) keep looking at this little shiny object that we keep dangling in front of your face".

As some have mentioned, they are not going to reveal their cost models unless they have to. And it doesn't appear anyone is making them do it. I have a feeling the government is looking the other way because it is "green energy" and therefore a noble cause (imagine the outrage if an entire industry was doing this type of pricing, and all acting together in the same manner...). My next door neighbor changed the windows on his house (existing ones for new ones, with no changes) and the city charged him $1200 for a permit. But the permit for a complicated solar panel system, mounted on your roof, feeding high voltage electricity back through the electrical panel? Just $350. Obviously, things aren't treated the same down at city hall! And I have a feeling the government is just letting these guys get by with whatever profit strategy they want. (Hey, the government could cut down their subsidies if they just forced these guys to start doing itemized pricing and revealing their scheme!)

Unfortunately, the consumer and (in many cases) the grid as a whole suffers. Because if the installers were willing to allow me to upgrade my panels at his cost with standard margin (as long as it did not involve extra equipment or installation), then everyone would likely be upgrading to more efficient panels and generating more electricity. Instead of offsetting 80% of your power with cheap 260W panels, it is much better to offset 95%+ with better 320W panels if the consumer could just pay the real price difference.

It appears the only thing to do is to try to drive down their total price by pitting about 4 of these guys against each other. But unfortunately, they probably all go to the same bar for drinks after work and talk about how they'll work together to keep the pricing high while they milk this pricing scheme for as long as they can.

The situation is what it is. Being a commissioned peddler for the 1st 10 yrs. of my working career and also having some experience with proposals, job specs and such from a 2d career as an engineer, I took the bull by the tail and faced the situation squarely when adding solar PV to my home. I decided what my goals and requirements were, put those things on a piece of paper, decided what equipment best met those goals, did my homework as to what that equipment cost, and the best vendors to ask for proposals. I then put all the requirements in a Request For Proposal (RFP) similar to the types I'd put together or had to respond to when a working stiff. I sent the RFP to reputable vendors and one rock bottom vendor to set a price floor. I did not share pricing with competing vendors.

I negotiated tough but fair. I got about the lowest published price ( per the CSI database ) for my equipment at that time or since, and I got a system that meets or exceeds my requirements and has performed without a hitch for the last 30 months that has slightly exceeded expected output. It's not cost effective in the commonly used sense, but I knew it would not be from the beginning and in spite of how I rail about cost effectiveness, that was never a goal for me anyway ( BTW: If it was a goal/requirement, I'd never have solar, or at least not yet).

Know what you want, what's available and what it costs. Treat vendors as professional in a professional way and drop the ones who don't respond in kind.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

[gmanInPA]

Just my $.02... it takes a considerable amount of time to determine a very precise materials list that will end up being in reality what is was on paper. I suspect that solar installers, like any sales-oriented company, have only a small amount of their quotes turn into sales. Why invest hours and hours into a prospect who will go with another guy because his bolts were 25 cents cheaper than yours? I think it is unfair to hold a vendor to that level of fine detail in the quoting stage without the prospective buyer having made some sort of commitment to buy.

Further - jobs such as solar installs, as with most jobs, have plenty of unknowns and unpredictable outcomes. Personally, I think that too is unfair to hold a contractor's feet to the fire about.

I prefer to have contractors do time and material work but I also set an expectation at the beginning that I'd like to see an accounting for that time and material at the end. That is just to ensure that additional profits are not accidentally or purposefully paid "just because". I've had multiple contractors who just lack poor record keeping skills attempt to charge for materials twice, etc.

I think T&M can be fair for everyone involved, though it admittedly doesn't favor the stingy. If I installed solar, I wouldn't want to do jobs for the stingy to begin with. As one who does contract work myself, I simply will NOT do RFP work. It has never worked out well for myself or the client who doesn't like to be told that they cannot have something they want because they neglected to mention it in the RFP. If anyone ends up doing the giving, it's often the contractor. That might make someone smugly think they got away with some great feat, but they're doing so off the back of their hard-working community members.

People who work deserve to get paid for their work. Customers deserve a fair accounting. I think T&M with a reasonable and approximate quote is a good way to go. If you're concerned, you could also establish a written agreement that places the responsibility for gross negligence on a quote (ie. whoops, we forgot to include your mounts in the quote) on the contractor. You could also have "not to exceed" guidelines as well.

[solarix]

Nobody does itemized quotes. A big part of the margin is in the equipment markup. There are a lot of solar distributors out there and many of them will deal with the public just the same as a solar installer. If I gave you an itemized quote, you would go look at distributor prices and think I'm ripping you off. There are lots of costs involved in being in business to install solar on your roof. The equipment markup is what pays those overhead costs. We are in the business of installing turnkey systems because that is 99% of the market. Very few people take my advice to spend the time learning how to do it themselves and save lots.