Roofing & Solar in Bay Area

[russ]

Why do you recommend not to go with them? Because they serve no extra function if there is no shade problem

Does Enphase provide labor with their warranty or only the materials?

No labor only materials

[Volusiano]

Interesting read... however the author himself is using Enphase micro inverters. Why do you recommend not to go with them? Is it because you don't believe that they will last the 25 yrs that Enphase is saying they will or are you pointing to the fact that there are so many of them and the cost to replace them might be high?

Does Enphase provide labor with their warranty or only the materials?

Enphase no longer provides labor for their warranty. What does that tell you about their own faith of their own product?

The other reason is the issue of multiple points of failure. If you have 30 microinverters on the roof, and assuming that they'll go bad once during the 20 year life of the system. That means 60 trips up the roof (1 trip to retrieve for warranty replacement, and 1 trip to replace, times 30 because it's unlikely they all die at the same time). Not only that, when you're on the roof, you'll have to dismantle the array to get to the problem part, then put everything back. And do this twice (as mentioned before, once for retrieval and once for replacement). Imagine the kind of labor cost it'll involve. Now you can see why Enphase no longer include labor in the warranty. Sure, parts are cheap to warranty, but not labor. Do you want to be left holding the bag to pay for all that labor?

Now compare to a single (or 2) inverter on the ground. If it goes bad, it's a one time easy swap on the ground -> no walking up the roof, no dismantling the array to get to the bad part. No putting it back. No doing it twice each time. Times 30 (or however many panels you have).

Not to count the fact that they cost more than string inverters. So why would you want to pay more for something that can be a lot more problematic, especially if you don't need it to solve a problem (shading issue) that you don't have? Maybe the author has microinverters because he has a legitimate need for it. But if you don't need it, why do you want it if it can be troublesome?

Also, the roof can be as high as 50F hotter than ambient temperature in the summer, especially in warmer climate area. Do you want your sensitive electronics to be baking up on your hot rooftop day in day out all summer long? How long do you think they'll last?

[Volusiano]

I'm sorry but what is the difference between product warranty and output warranty? Do you know if their warranty covers labor?

On a side note, do you know warranty for the SunPower panels and if they cover labor?

Product warranty is for its replacement if it goes bad. Production (output) warranty is for its replacement if it still works but doesn't produce up to the reduced capacity as claimed over the years.

SunPower has the best warranty -> 25 years both product and output warranty combined, and also less reduced capacity than industry standard (which is 80% after 25 years).

I think almost all solar manufacturers include labor in their warranty.

[MadDog]

Enphase no longer provides labor for their warranty. What does that tell you about their own faith of their own product?

The other reason is the issue of multiple points of failure. If you have 30 microinverters on the roof, and assuming that they'll go bad once during the 20 year life of the system. That means 60 trips up the roof (1 trip to retrieve for warranty replacement, and 1 trip to replace, times 30 because it's unlikely they all die at the same time). Not only that, when you're on the roof, you'll have to dismantle the array to get to the problem part, then put everything back. And do this twice (as mentioned before, once for retrieval and once for replacement). Imagine the kind of labor cost it'll involve. Now you can see why Enphase no longer include labor in the warranty. Sure, parts are cheap to warranty, but not labor. Do you want to be left holding the bag to pay for all that labor?

Now compare to a single (or 2) inverter on the ground. If it goes bad, it's a one time easy swap on the ground -> no walking up the roof, no dismantling the array to get to the bad part. No putting it back. No doing it twice each time. Times 30 (or however many panels you have).

Not to count the fact that they cost more than string inverters. So why would you want to pay more for something that can be a lot more problematic, especially if you don't need it to solve a problem (shading issue) that you don't have? Maybe the author has microinverters because he has a legitimate need for it. But if you don't need it, why do you want it if it can be troublesome?

Also, the roof can be as high as 50F hotter than ambient temperature in the summer, especially in warmer climate area. Do you want your sensitive electronics to be baking up on your hot rooftop day in day out all summer long? How long do you think they'll last?

OK.. I see your point about the micro inverters. What do you think of the DC-DC optimizers like SolarEdge? I've heard that they can improve performance of a centrally inverted system. I guess they have some of the same cons like the micro inverters but may be a better life expectancy? I guess I would like to have visibility into how much each panel is producing....

Is there any per panel monitoring that you can get with a centrally inverted system? The reason I ask is that if a panel goes bad, then how do you go about figuring it out? If you had per panel monitoring using micro inverters or optimizers, then you would know immediately which panel was bad. How will you figure that out in a centrally inverted system or is it that you don't need to worry about it. Can you make your warranty claims just based on the production drop?

[Severum88]

+1

Severum

Product warranty is for its replacement if it goes bad. Production (output) warranty is for its replacement if it still works but doesn't produce up to the reduced capacity as claimed over the years.

SunPower has the best warranty -> 25 years both product and output warranty combined, and also less reduced capacity than industry standard (which is 80% after 25 years).

I think almost all solar manufacturers include labor in their warranty.

[Naptown]

I think almost all solar manufacturers include labor in their warranty.

Of panel manufacturers Sunpower is the only one I know of that includes labor.
Fronius I know does. as very early Enphase (m190's)
Has anyone here actually read the panel manufacturers warranties?
Many here tout Canadian Solar and their 3rd party insurance. Ever read how to make a claim?

http://www.canadiansolar.com/down/en/PV_Module_Warranty_en.pdf

You are responsible to obtain a return material authorization remove the panel, pack it according to their specifications, pay for shipping both ways, (the warranty does not specify where to ship to but in previous iterations of this warranty it was China) no labor or other things included.

[Volusiano]

OK.. I see your point about the micro inverters. What do you think of the DC-DC optimizers like SolarEdge? I've heard that they can improve performance of a centrally inverted system. I guess they have some of the same cons like the micro inverters but may be a better life expectancy? I guess I would like to have visibility into how much each panel is producing....

Is there any per panel monitoring that you can get with a centrally inverted system? The reason I ask is that if a panel goes bad, then how do you go about figuring it out? If you had per panel monitoring using micro inverters or optimizers, then you would know immediately which panel was bad. How will you figure that out in a centrally inverted system or is it that you don't need to worry about it. Can you make your warranty claims just based on the production drop?

If I had shading issues, I'd go with SolarEdge over Enphase. That's because only the local optimizer circuitry is on the roof. Yes, they still have the multiple points of failure disadvantage. But at least their inverter circuitry is not on the hot roof in multiple points, only their optimizers are up there (only put the minimum needed up there). So I agree with their approach. Since they don't have electrolytic capacitors up on the roof like the microinverters, there's less chance of failure. And they put the money where their mouth is and have labor included in their warranty -> that's the key. But if I don't have any shading issue, I wouldn't go with SolarEdge either -> why risk putting anything other than panels up on the roof if you don't need to?

You can have visibility into production of your panels either way, via microinverters or local optimizers or string inverter. Why do you care about individual production if overall production is good enough? If a panel in a string underperforms or malfunctions, you'll get a big loud warning just the same through the result of the whole string.

In terms of being able to diagnose more quickly to the bad panel if you have the local optimizer or microinverters, that may be true. But it doesn't mean that you can't diagnose to the bad panel in a string at all. It just takes a little more time. But you gotta remember that panels are supposed to be trouble-free. It's much more likely that the microinverter will go bad up on the roof than a panel will go bad up on the roof. So the longer time it takes to troubleshoot problem on a string of panel is not too much of a concern in the first place because quality brand name panels are not expected to go bad very often.

[Volusiano]

Of panel manufacturers Sunpower is the only one I know of that includes labor.
Fronius I know does. as very early Enphase (m190's)
Has anyone here actually read the panel manufacturers warranties?
Many here tout Canadian Solar and their 3rd party insurance. Ever read how to make a claim?

http://www.canadiansolar.com/down/en/PV_Module_Warranty_en.pdf

You are responsible to obtain a return material authorization remove the panel, pack it according to their specifications, pay for shipping both ways, (the warranty does not specify where to ship to but in previous iterations of this warranty it was China) no labor or other things included.

Good point, Rich. The reason I said labor is included in the warranty is because my contractor included 20 year parts and labor in their warranty to me. So I assumed that the manufacturer must have included labor warranty on their panels or else my contractors would not have passed along and covered labor in their warranty to me.

We don't know if the Canadian solar warranty as written up on the link is directed toward home buyers only or if it's for everyone, contractors included. Maybe volume contractors have a different warranty deal with Canadian Solar that would include labor which the contractor passes along to homeowners.

The bottom line is that my contractor gave me a 20 year parts and labor warranty deal for them, and that's what counts to me. I know they're only as good as however long the contractor is around. So as with all things in life, that's a risk you take. If my contractor is out of business by the time I ever need to make a claim, then I'd be stuck with dealing with it on my own. But all I can do now is to go with a manufacturer who is reputable enough that my contractor feels comfortable enough with that manufacturer's product to give me the best warranty they can.

[MadDog]

If I had shading issues, I'd go with SolarEdge over Enphase. That's because only the local optimizer circuitry is on the roof. Yes, they still have the multiple points of failure disadvantage. But at least their inverter circuitry is not on the hot roof in multiple points, only their optimizers are up there (only put the minimum needed up there). So I agree with their approach. Since they don't have electrolytic capacitors up on the roof like the microinverters, there's less chance of failure. And they put the money where their mouth is and have labor included in their warranty -> that's the key. But if I don't have any shading issue, I wouldn't go with SolarEdge either -> why risk putting anything other than panels up on the roof if you don't need to?

Aren't the optimizers also installed like the micro inverters, 1 per panel? Are you saying that we don't need optimizers 1 per panel but maybe 1 every 2 or 3 panels (or higher)?

[Naptown]

Aren't the optimizers also installed like the micro inverters, 1 per panel? Are you saying that we don't need optimizers 1 per panel but maybe 1 every 2 or 3 panels (or higher)?

1 per panel.

[Volusiano]

Aren't the optimizers also installed like the micro inverters, 1 per panel? Are you saying that we don't need optimizers 1 per panel but maybe 1 every 2 or 3 panels (or higher)?

It's 1 per panel. But instead of having both optimizing circuitry and inverter circuitry altogether in 1 box per panel, you only now have optimizer circuitry only, because the inverter circuitry is down on the ground with the string inverter already.

To break down:

1. Microinverter approach -> both inverter and optimizer is together in 1 box per panel
2. String inverter approach -> Inverter and maybe 1 or 2 MPPT is together in 1 box on the ground for all panels. Or there may be 2 or 3 string inverters on the ground if you have a very big system.
2. SolarEdge approach -> optimizer in 1 box per panel, AND 1 string inverter (without any MPPT) on the ground for all panels.

The SolarEdge philosophy is to only put the necessary optimizer circuitry up on the roof with the panel (1 per panel). But it's not necessary nor desired to put the inverters on the roof with the panels. So separate the optimizers out and put them on the roof, but keep the single string inverter (without optimizer) on the ground. I agree with this philosophy, IF you have shading issue.

[Naptown]

Reading the Solar edge info today it seems that this system will also meet the 2014 NEC requirements for shut down and voltage at the array.(perhaps also the 2017 code )

[MadDog]

Reading the Solar edge info today it seems that this system will also meet the 2014 NEC requirements for shut down and voltage at the array.(perhaps also the 2017 code )

Hmm... Solaredge is looking better and better... I've also been thinking about SunPower because of limited roof space, but looks like every seems to agree that they are quite expensive. I don't think there are any micro inverters that work with the SunPower panels. Has anyone here gone with Sunpower panels with Solaredge?

[Naptown]

The P400 will work with sunpower modules as they are made for 96 cell panels.
However here is the catch.
The installer would have to buy stand alone modules and then buy racking and the solar edge inverter.
The best deal from Sunpower is to buy the system that includes racking and the inverter.
Cost will go up a bit going that way but it is a system that will work.