Anyone with good cleaning tips?

[russ]

I hate the backwashing noise at night, that's why I said this is pretty nice..

https://www.doulton.com/content/wholehouse/CFseries.pdf

read on

I guess replace media every 5 yrs

What they claim is total BS -

500,000 to 2+ million gallons of filtered,
chemical free water at every tap (sizes vary)
 Removes Chlorine, THM’s, herbicides and
pesticides
 Removes Volatile Organic Chemicals
 Chloramines
 Heavy Metals*
 Arsenic and Fluoride reduction*
 Great tasting, clean and clear water

The primary purpose of the carbon filter upstream of the softener is to remove the chlorine to protect the softener resin. I guess they mean to say that accidentally some of the nasties may get caught in the carbon.

[silversaver]

How can a carbon filter function over time without back flushing? That is what gets rid of the contaminants.
Not possible.

I hate the backwashing noise at night, that's why I said this is pretty nice..

https://www.doulton.com/content/wholehouse/CFseries.pdf

read on

I guess replace media every 5 yrs

[russ]

Looks like Aquacera CF12 carbon filtration doesn't require backwashing, that's much better in my book.

How can a carbon filter function over time without back flushing? That is what gets rid of the contaminants.
Not possible.

[silversaver]

This reminds me I haven't completed my water system yet. I have a Fleck 7000 SXT on demand 64,000 grain water softener system with a Aquacera CF12 carbon filtration system feeding the water softener. I have yet to connect my DI system to the filtered water for car washing (the joys of washing, rinsing and walking away). The DI media is expensive but as mentioned above, filtering the water extends the life. Another way to extend the media life is to use a pressure washer.

The Aquacera is used primarily to remove chlorine from our water. Fresh clean water from all outlets, including toilets. The carbon filter system runs around $800-1000. Media life of 5 yrs ($200-300 replacement cost). The water softener system was about $800 as well. It's been about 4 years now and no problems. Not having spots on glass or mineral deposits is much appreciated by the wife.

The DI system I have is made by CR Spotless. I could've designed my own for less had I been aware of my options at the time of purchase. But definitely going to have to get this set up before the spring/summer months come around. And maybe I'll tackle the solar panels at some point. I just don't want to go 35ft up onto the roof.

I have the same Fleck 7000 valve 64k softener. It is nicely build, but too much noise during regeneration. There's carbon filter system with Fleck 7000 valve as well that required backwashing. Looks like Aquacera CF12 carbon filtration doesn't require backwashing, that's much better in my book.

[frizzlefry]

This reminds me I haven't completed my water system yet. I have a Fleck 7000 SXT on demand 64,000 grain water softener system with a Aquacera CF12 carbon filtration system feeding the water softener. I have yet to connect my DI system to the filtered water for car washing (the joys of washing, rinsing and walking away). The DI media is expensive but as mentioned above, filtering the water extends the life. Another way to extend the media life is to use a pressure washer.

The Aquacera is used primarily to remove chlorine from our water. Fresh clean water from all outlets, including toilets. The carbon filter system runs around $800-1000. Media life of 5 yrs ($200-300 replacement cost). The water softener system was about $800 as well. It's been about 4 years now and no problems. Not having spots on glass or mineral deposits is much appreciated by the wife.

The DI system I have is made by CR Spotless. I could've designed my own for less had I been aware of my options at the time of purchase. But definitely going to have to get this set up before the spring/summer months come around. And maybe I'll tackle the solar panels at some point. I just don't want to go 35ft up onto the roof.

[russ]

If you can use RO before DI, the cost of filtration will lower dramatically, because DI resin is much more expensive to replace.

I was looking at RO systems -10m3/ day range - here they want you to use a softener upstream - gets expensive. 23.5 kW/k/day + chemicals, membranes etc - approximately 10,000$ system cost - softener excluded as I already have one of adequate size.

[Volusiano]

How are you "filtering"? I have the same problem - everything underground here is limestone so hardness is sky high. Hard to have good looking roses when they are all white.

Russ

I bought 2 10" filter cartridges that are connected together. The first cartridge in the flow has a charcoal canister and the second cartridge in the flow has a DI resin canister. Professional Water Fed Pole folks use a much bigger system that usually is a charcoal to RO to DI system in that order that costs up to $2K easily. If you can use RO before DI, the cost of filtration will lower dramatically, because DI resin is much more expensive to replace.

So mine is a much smaller system with just charcoal and DI. It does the job fine and when brand new, I get very low (under 10) TDS reading on the output. The problem is that such a small system can get shot pretty quickly with a large volume of water flowing through it. That's why when used for car wash, everything should be washed thoroughly with regular (hard water) first, then only the final rinse is with DI water for a spot free dry. I'm going to adopt the same approach for my solar panel cleaning -> clean thoroughly with regular water first, then do a final rinse with DI water.

[Volusiano]

You can get hardness testing kits - one or two drops of colored solution and however many drops of the second solution - number of drops * the standard they provide gives you hardness.

Volusiano is fully correct about the TDS not being a direct indication of hardness.

Actually Slopoke corrected me by saying that TDS is not a direct indication of hardness. Most people who talk about hardness refer to grains per gallon. So I'll rephrase my statement and will say that my water is EXTREMELY high in TDS value at 750 ppm. And I'll also rephrase and say that my water is EXTREMELY hard at 20 grains per gallon. Hope this clarifies things.

[Volusiano]

What about a final rinse with something like jet dry or photo flo?

That's an interesting idea and I've seen people using Jet Dry on windows cleaning and claim that it dries to a spot free finish. But I'm leary of putting any kind of solution on the panels other than plain water because the chemicals may affect the seals on the panels.

[russ]

Volusiano, the TDS (total dissolved solids) reading of 750 ppm is not a direct reading of hardness. To get a proper reading of hardness, you need to get a hardness test kit. I have a TDS meter on my reverse osmosis drinking water system and it reads 426 and my home has a 48,000 grain water softener installed. My incoming water to the house is 12 grains of hardness. I just replaced our water softener and it is only a month old. I have not tested the hardness of the water softener output, but you get the slippery feeling like the soap will not completely rinse off and the glass shower enclosures do not show any spotting. The TDS reading of your water might be things that do not affect hardness.

You can get hardness testing kits - one or two drops of colored solution and however many drops of the second solution - number of drops * the standard they provide gives you hardness.

Volusiano is fully correct about the TDS not being a direct indication of hardness.

[russ]

So my future strategy will be cleaning from the ladder in the future, with plain hard water first, taking my time to make sure I clean it thoroughly, then do a final rinse with filtered water last so they dry into a spot free dry.

How are you "filtering"? I have the same problem - everything underground here is limestone so hardness is sky high. Hard to have good looking roses when they are all white.

Russ

[OvertheSun]

So my future strategy will be cleaning from the ladder in the future, with plain hard water first, taking my time to make sure I clean it thoroughly, then do a final rinse with filtered water last so they dry into a spot free dry.

What about a final rinse with something like jet dry or photo flo?

[Volusiano]

Both TDS and grains per gallon measuring systems indicate the hardness of the water, just in different way. There's no wrong way or right way.

My RO drinking system reads about 75 ppm TDS on the output, with about 750 ppm TDS on the input. This reading is for the Total Dissolved Solids. For pure water measurement, you want your filter output to have between 0-10 ppm TDS reading. This is what professional window cleaners use (TDS reading) when they use water fed pole pure water cleaning. All they care about is that the output of their carbon/RO/DI filtration system is between 0-10 ppm TDS in order for their cleaned windows to dry without spotting. They don't use a water hardness kit in measuring how pure their water is in terms of grains per gallon.

My city water hardness averages about 16.5 grains per gallon, with the high of 20 gpg. This is the measure of water hardness by the city, and this is the number to be used to set for your water softener. So yeah, the water softener uses a different way of measuring water hardness. But it doesn't mean that it's wrong to use the TDS reading as another way to measure water hardness. It's just 2 different ways to measure it.

But there's a difference between soft water and pure water. Soft water produced by a water softener exchanges the mineral ions in the hard water (like calcium and magnesium) with salt ions from the water softener. So the output of the water softener is soft water, but it's not pure water. If your water is very hard, while your water softener outputs "soft" water, if you take the TDS reading of this soft water, you'll find it to be about the same value as the TDS value of your hard water. Why? Because before, the TDS is for calcium and magnesium content; and after, the TDS is for salt ions. Different dissolved solids, but same amount, hence same TDS readings both ways. So soft water is not pure water because its TDS reading is just as high.

I also have a 40K gallon capacity water softener. My soft water comes out nice and soft, feels slimy on the skin, makes soaping up very easy, as expected. But after it dries out on my glass shower door, I can still see salt spots on the glass. That's an indication of the soft water not being the same as pure water. Only RO and DI can remove the total dissolved solids. Water softener doesn't remove TDS, it only exchanges one kind of ion with another kind, the salt kind that makes it easier to soap up.

[slopoke]

The reason is that my water is EXTREMELY hard (750 ppm on TDS reading)

Volusiano, the TDS (total dissolved solids) reading of 750 ppm is not a direct reading of hardness. To get a proper reading of hardness, you need to get a hardness test kit. I have a TDS meter on my reverse osmosis drinking water system and it reads 426 and my home has a 48,000 grain water softener installed. My incoming water to the house is 12 grains of hardness. I just replaced our water softener and it is only a month old. I have not tested the hardness of the water softener output, but you get the slippery feeling like the soap will not completely rinse off and the glass shower enclosures do not show any spotting. The TDS reading of your water might be things that do not affect hardness.

[Volusiano]

Well, I cleaned my 44 panels for the first time today. Bought the cleaning tools a few months ago but never had to clean thanks to frequent rains. But it hasn't rained for a while and the panels are dirty enough to warrant a cleaning, so I was eager to try it out today.

I have 44 panels lined up in 4 rows and 11 columns (length of panels are vertical). I bought a 30 ft extension fiber glass water fed pole with a brush head for $175 and a filter setup with a 10" carbon filter followed by a 10" DI filter for $125.. Roof is pitched at 23 degrees. The idea is to use filtered water to clean and let it dry to a spotless dry.

Earlier in the morning, I went up on top of the roof (with safety harness tethered to an anchor point at the roof ridge), and cleaned from the top of the roof. Only needed about 25 ft of the pole, so took the last piece of the pole out to lighten it up. Took about an hour to finish. Waited for it to dry, and noticed that the last 2 bottom rows were still not totally clean. I was pretty disappointed. They looked clean when they were wet, but after they dried out, I could see some dirt streaks remaining. The problem is that I could lift up the brush head to rinse out the dirt on the top 2 rows. But the pole got too long on the last 2 rows that it was impossible to lift up the brush head to rinse on the last 2 rows.

Being tethered to the roof anchor point gave me some confidence to move around the roof with more ease. But boy, the last trip down without being tethered to the anchor point and all achy and tired wasn't fun. I was on all four crawling down backward very slowly to be safe, LOL.

So I decided to wait until the sun is down to clean the bottom 2 rows again, but using another approach. Instead of getting up to the top of the roof ridge like before (not looking forward to have to walk the roof again), I decided to clean from below on the ladder, which is safer. I would climb up and stand on the ladder at the bottom of the roof and push the pole upward. There's 10 foot of roof between the bottom of the last row and the bottom of the roof. I decided to clean all 4 rows while I was at it. So I used the whole 30 ft of the pole to push it up all the way to the top row. I needed all 30 ft of the pole because the 4 rows are about 20 ft and there's another 10 ft between the bottom row and the end bottom of the roof. I'd clean 2 columns at a time (8 panels total), then move the ladder to the next 2 columns to clean them, and so on.

One other thing I decided to do is to not use the filter the second time around. The reason is that my water is EXTREMELY high in TDS (750 ppm on TDS reading), so the morning cleaning session that took about an hour pretty much got my DI cartridge all shot. So I don't want to use filtered water the whole time anymore, but instead just use it for the final rinse to conserve DI resins. That's the same strategy Mr Clean DI cleaning system uses. Clean thoroughly with regular hard water first, then use final rinse only with DI.

So I took the cartridges out and cleaned with just hard water direct from the hose. I know I've said before that I was against spraying/cleaning the panels with very hard water because of the water stains it'd leave. So my strategy was to clean with regular (hard) water first, so that I can take my time and make sure all the dirt are brushed off. Then come back and clean more quickly a second round with filtered water to rinse off the stain. Unfortunately, I ran out of time and it got too dark by the time I was done with cleaning with hard water, I was not able to do another pass with filtered DI water again. So I'll just have to wait until tomorrow morning to see how the panels dry out and see if I need to rinse out the hard water stain or not.

Overall, I felt more comfortable cleaning upward from the ground (well from the ladder actually) than cleaning downward from the roof ridge. Mainly because I felt safer standing on the ladder instead of standing and walking around on the roof. I might have felt more comfortable walking the roof if I had flat shingles roof with firm grip. But I have curved tile roof and you have to be more careful not to get tripped up walking on the more slippery curved tiles. And more importantly, walk on the right spots on the tiles to avoid breaking them. Another reason is that I'm not encumbered wearing a harness and have the tethering rope lying around getting in the way.

So my future strategy will be cleaning from the ladder in the future, with plain hard water first, taking my time to make sure I clean it thoroughly, then do a final rinse with filtered water last so they dry into a spot free dry.

Update: I checked out the panels this morning and they still don't look clean enough. Lesson learned is that just a few passes of the brush is not enough to get the dirt off. The glass looks deceivingly clean when wet. But the dirt stubbornly clings to the glass surface, and once the glass dries out, the dirt rears its ugly head again. You really have to brush over it really well several times to make sure the dirt is gone. The 23 degree pitch doesn't help either because the pitch is not deep enough to let gravity do the work for you pulling the dirt off with water.