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**JPCoffey** · 08-05-2013, 06:38 PM

Oops already posted review request . . . . sorry

Everyone, I knew I had posted a system review on a forum, but couldn't remember which one. After a cursory review of the topics and not finding my original post, I figured this was a new solar forum. I was wrong. Sorry.

Would still accept feedback though. My initial system review request got way, way off topic from squirrel hunting, to dome shelters, and everything in between. If I could get some feedback that stayed on topic . . .

well, that would be great feedback!

Thank you!

Sincerely,

John

**thastinger** · 08-05-2013, 07:19 PM

So your approach is going to be to put up 2K worth of panels and see what you can get to run from them? There are several ways to get more bang for your buck and energy conservation needs to become a new way of thinking for you. Instead of buying a new EE fridge that consumes 1.5Kwh/day, consider converting a 8.8Cuft deep freeze into a fridge via an external temp regulator, it will consume less than .5Kwh/day. T8 bulbs give out the most light per watt.
Is this system going to run all of these loads all the time or is it going to lay in standby until needed?
Your battery bank is too small, you'll want a 48V battery bank for that much panel so you'll have to size the batteries IOT be charged at the proper charge rate, will probably need 8 of the L16 style batteries to match up to that array, then if SHTF, where are you going to find those batteries when yours need to be replaced? If you designed the system to use the golf cart 6V batteries, those may still not be on every corner if shtf but would probably be the most plentiful of the 6V batteries.
You really do need a kill-a-watt meter and figure out your loads, you'll be amazed to find that a fridge can vary from 1Kwh/day for the top of the line EE ones to over 3Kwh/day for an older one and that is a HUGE difference when you're talking about living off-grid.
PSW for sure on the inverter because you'll be starting AC motors and running FL or CFL lights.

Depending on your location, the system in my sig would likely suite your needs and be quite a bit cheaper than what you're planning to build.

**Mike90250** · 08-05-2013, 10:47 PM

I'm going to partialy agree with thastinger , that the batteries are not right, use the midnight classic controller, and a 48v pure sine inverter. 8, 6v golf cart batteries, babied well, might give you 5 years, a quite a bit less cost then the AGM. 8 give you a 48V, 200ah battery, not huge, but you don't want to be the "flame attracting the moths". You could build a parallel bank, and get 400ah with 16 batteries, but that's a lot of caps to check every month. Or go with the L16's getting a solid 7 years out of them, and have enough spare interconnects on hand, to replace that bank, with whatever cells you can find in 7 years.
And spend the $ on a high end energy star cooler, better to save power, than to have to generate it.

Also think about backup charging, I get 4-7 days of clouds in winter, and have to resort to a fair amount of generator run time. Do you have a site for micro-hydro? Wind would be a choice of last resort, where will you get a cherry picker in hard times, to do annual maintenance on it?

**JPCoffey** · 08-06-2013, 02:57 PM

Great input, thank you

THastinger and Mike90250, thanks for your feedback. I agree that I need to get more data on what my energy consumption is going to be. My apprehension in collecting it is that are too many variables in preparing for the unknown. This of course makes it difficult to get advice from the forum and is sure to lead to topic digression. My problem statement is essentially, "I don't know what I'll do with this system, all I know is that I'll need it very, very badly." Not a whole lot of parameters to work with, I know.

THastinger, I am going to reference your comment you posted to my original system config request on June 3, 2013

Since you have reasons for going off-grid other than cost per Kwh then it makes sense for you. It obviously costs money and probably two or three times what you originally thought it would cost.

You are definitely right on this. This has cost much more than I thought it would. Even the cost of simple battery connect cables is jaw dropping. While I was going to purchase 2# cables, I have since learned that the heat loss is too great for such 'relatively' thin cables. I've decided to purchase 2/0 cables and they are very expensive. Sheesh. It is not that I wasn't willing to spend some money on a modest system, it is just that a modest system is turning out not to be modest at all. Anyway, I am already considering scaling back the system to 1500 watts until I get a handle on what I really need. So, I have purchased a . . . . Kill-A-Watt meter.

THastinger and Mike90250, I fully agree that conserving energy is easier than creating it. I am seriously going to see what I can do to convert my flourescent lighting to T5 or T8. Will be scrutinizing the refrigerator/freezer thing to. When it comes down to brass tacks, I want fridge/freezer, computer system with internet, security camera system, some lights and a little left over for some tools. I will start gathering some numbers and see if I can paint a more accurate picture of what I need. If not for the forum, for myself! Thanks so much for your feedback!

Anybody else want to add to what has been posted? The more feedback I have, the better other readers and I can move forward in the right direction.

Sincerely,

John

**Sunking** · 08-06-2013, 03:10 PM

JP

If you want to go off grid, then you desperately want to pay 10 times more for electricity the rest of your life because money is no object. If SHTF do not turn any lights on at night, or make a sound during the day. Otherwise we know where you are at, what you have, and will stop at nothing to take it from you. One of us will die fighting for it. Problem is there are thousands of me, and one of you.

**russ** · 08-06-2013, 03:25 PM

Computers and internet would have any use at that time - wtshtf?

This is a bit on the crazy side to me.

We have really progressed since the 50's - all one "needed" back then was a fallout shelter.

For Y2K guys I knew at the company were buying up ammunition and camping gear - most of them I wouldn't want to be close to when they have a gun in their hands - let alone if times got tough.

**SunEagle** · 08-06-2013, 03:46 PM

Preparing for and living through power outages due to weather related incidents makes sense.

Preparing for and surviving after an incident where the "merde hits the rotating oscillator" is wishful thinking at best. Most people not matter how well they think they have prepared will not survive.

**JPCoffey** · 08-06-2013, 04:21 PM

Clarification on SHTF . . .

Guys, I appreciate your feedback. SHTF doesn't necessarily mean Zombie Apocalypse where people are using firearms to get into your house so that they can feed their families. While possible, I believe this is highly unlikely.

I believe SHTF will come in the form of an economic collapse of some sort. Don't really know what that is going to look like or how it will precipitate, but if the dominoes fall like I think they will, ultimately the dollar will crash and have no value on the world market. We will simply all have to do more with less. If the dollar collapses, then we won't be able to buy foreign oil. While the US will have to fall back on coal and natural gas, I believe it will take some time to do. Until then, I expect brown outs where the electric company has to cut off power to certain parts of the grid for set periods of time.

There is an excellent documentary on YouTube that chronicles the plight of the Cubans when the Soviet Union crashed. They were still under an embargo with the U.S., they had no currency that was worth anything, and their benefactor, the USSR, was dead. I believe it is called Peak Oil, but I'm not sure. Contrary to the Zombie Apocalypse that is being peddled in the popular media, the Cuban people came together and worked as communities to make ends meet.

Whether it happens or does not happen, I know that I have become so dependent on electricity I will be absolutely miserable without it. Surely, I should do something to make sure I have at least a little - shouldn't I? Electricity has become as rudimentary to the way we live as food, water and clothing. While we could theoretically live without electricity, we really can't. So, why wouldn't I want to take some steps to making absolutely sure I had a least a little? Self-sufficiency, to the best of our ability, is a beautiful thing.

It is all about taking control of our lives. I hope I have clarified my motivation for installing an off grid system. Again, thanks for your feedback.

Sincerely,

John

**Sunking** · 08-06-2013, 04:47 PM

Hate to poke a hole in your theory, but electricity does not come from oil, not enough to amount to anything. 92% of it comes from Coal, NG, and Nuclear. The remaining 8% is hydro and wind. Solar, bio, and diesel fuel is so insignificant it is not measurable.

As far as oil goes, we have enough domestically we do not need any imports. We just refuse to drill and pipe it up. Some idiot in the White House does not want us to use it or create jobs.

**SunEagle** · 08-06-2013, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by JPCoffey

Guys, I appreciate your feedback. SHTF doesn't necessarily mean Zombie Apocalypse where people are using firearms to get into your house so that they can feed their families. While possible, I believe this is highly unlikely.

I believe SHTF will come in the form of an economic collapse of some sort. Don't really know what that is going to look like or how it will precipitate, but if the dominoes fall like I think they will, ultimately the dollar will crash and have no value on the world market. We will simply all have to do more with less. If the dollar collapses, then we won't be able to buy foreign oil. While the US will have to fall back on coal and natural gas, I believe it will take some time to do. Until then, I expect brown outs where the electric company has to cut off power to certain parts of the grid for set periods of time.

There is an excellent documentary on YouTube that chronicles the plight of the Cubans when the Soviet Union crashed. They were still under an embargo with the U.S., they had no currency that was worth anything, and their benefactor, the USSR, was dead. I believe it is called Peak Oil, but I'm not sure. Contrary to the Zombie Apocalypse that is being peddled in the popular media, the Cuban people came together and worked as communities to make ends meet.

Whether it happens or does not happen, I know that I have become so dependent on electricity I will be absolutely miserable without it. Surely, I should do something to make sure I have at least a little - shouldn't I? Electricity has become as rudimentary to the way we live as food, water and clothing. While we could theoretically live without electricity, we really can't. So, why wouldn't I want to take some steps to making absolutely sure I had a least a little? Self-sufficiency, to the best of our ability, is a beautiful thing.

It is all about taking control of our lives. I hope I have clarified my motivation for installing an off grid system. Again, thanks for your feedback.

Sincerely,

John

The issue with Cuba came at a time when there wasn't as much dependance on electricity or technology. They were almost a 3rd world country were most of what was manufactured came from hand labor and little technology.

If something like that happened in the US today just about all types of manufacturing (food, medicine, clean water, building materials, batteries, etc.) will slow down or stop. Once it stops we as a society will not be able to quickly get things back in place before millions die. All you have to do is remember when the lights went out in the North East a couple of decades ago. People went crazy. The loss of just electricity was enough to initiate ciaos.

I'm sorry but I just don't believe a true SHTF event will be pretty or survivable.

**thastinger** · 08-06-2013, 05:20 PM

JP, I understand your reasoning for wanting a system. Security comes in many different forms to many different people so I'm not going to sit in judgement of what any other man feels he needs to provide security for his loved ones.

That said, I can make it easy for you...for 6500 you can buy exactly what I have and it will do what you want it to do with power left over so long as you're smart about the refrigeration (convert a freezer to be a fridge). You can build it for 5500 if you don't want to buy the legit racking system for the panels but I spent the money for wind certified racking because I figured they wouldn't do me much good broken on the ground and I want insurance on the building and system until it falls apart (play both sides of the fence) and I pulled all the permits to do it and had it all inspected for the same reason.

The 6500 is the total cost to include wiring, breakers, fusing, etc but I did everything but the racking and panel mounting myself. Had to pay the initial core on the batteries because I didn't have any turn-ins etc. I'm glad I did it, I learned a ton from the folks here (sunking and naptown) and my own reading and wouldn't hesitate to do it again plus I can recreate my system in my sleep now and can tell like-minded people exactly what it costs to do. People here didn't tell me what I wanted to hear but they did tell me what I needed to hear (sunking) and I'm grateful because I had a great system from the get go, it is safe and reliable to boot, all inspected and blessed. I took and followed their recommendations (free professional advice is priceless) and mostly did what they told me to do. Of course there was the one of two who want to sit in judgement of why you're doing it, yet contribute nothing to the discussion, but those folks will always be around. The couple who really helped me didn't judge my reasons, just concentrated on the fact that I was asking for help to design an off-grid system. I'm standing by to "pay it forward".

**thastinger** · 08-06-2013, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by Sunking

Hate to poke a hole in your theory, but electricity does not come from oil, not enough to amount to anything. 92% of it comes from Coal, NG, and Nuclear. The remaining 8% is hydro and wind. Solar, bio, and diesel fuel is so insignificant it is not measurable.

As far as oil goes, we have enough domestically we do not need any imports. We just refuse to drill and pipe it up. Some idiot in the White House does not want us to use it or create jobs.

Just for the sake of discussion...if oil is ever traded in anything other than the USD we will be up chit creek with no paddle in sight. Today we have the luxury of printing as many worthless dollars as we want IOT buy oil but that may not always be the case. Although electricity is mostly coal here, the mining machines don't run on coal and the people don't drive coal powered cars to work. I guess the Green River Shale deposit will become appealing once oil is traded in a basket of foreign currencies and hopefully, we won't be too weak to defend it by then...SWO to SWO.

**Sunking** · 08-06-2013, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by thastinger

Just for the sake of discussion...if oil is ever traded in anything other than the USD we will be up chit creek with no paddle in sight.

That is not going to change anytime sooner. I agree the USD is about worthless. But it is worth more than any other currency out there. So if the USD does tank, it will be the last to do so as the rest of the worlds economy will have already crased and WW III will be in full progress. Well Switzerland may survive as they still have all the spoils of WW-II deep in their safes. But they will not be a Neutral in WW-III as their protection is gone.

**thastinger** · 08-06-2013, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by Sunking

I agree the USD is about worthless. But it is worth more than any other currency out there.

I disagree that one fiat currency is more valuable than the other, by definition, they are equally worthless. We just have more players in the ponzi scheme with more to lose, that's all. It isn't even paper money anymore, just ones and zeros on a computer screen. Without the injection of 85Bil/mo from the federal reserve, the economy would be contracting at a rate over 5% a year...a depression. I'm just counting the 85Bil, not the 850Bil it becomes in a fractional banking system. Go to your bank and try to withdraw 30K in cash, they won't have it on hand and then they'll report you to homeland security.

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