Micro Inverters question

[solardreamer]

Incorrect. Many "old timers" (I'll bet all of them) absolutely know about the Fq shift = power throttling.
It won't work with Generators
It won't work with random pieces of gear
It will work with an engineered system, which can be DIY with lots of research, or a "kit" from a distributor.

But there are way more DIY's that are going to learn an expensive lesson, unless they have done their homework.

Totally agree. I didn't want to bring up frequency shifting for many of the same reasons but also because I think frequency shifting is misused by most hybrid inverter manufacturers that have misled people to think it's OK because it's common. Frequency shifting mechanism was developed for the primary purpose of allowing utilities to modulate grid-tied inverter output power to avoid grid instability for short periods of time. Most hybrid inverters use the mechanism to modulate grid-tied inverter output power to ensure micro-grid stability which is fine but the problem is they also provide the frequency shifted backup power for extended periods of time when there is no guarantee that it will work with devices in general. I am not aware of any standard for backup power that recommends providing frequency shifted power to devices in general. Frequency shifted power would generally be identified as dirty power. It's rather odd that many people seem to willing to pay paying $$$ for hybrid inverters that put out dirty power when they would never buy an UPS that puts out dirty power. In fact, hybrid inverters that puts out frequency shifted power often cause problems with UPS.

[Ampster]

.......... Frequency shifted power would generally be identified as dirty power. It's rather odd that many people seem to willing to pay paying $$$ for hybrid inverters that put out dirty power when they would never buy an UPS that puts out dirty power. In fact, hybrid inverters that puts out frequency shifted power often cause problems with UPS.

Yes frequency shifted power does cause some UPS to go into backup mode which then causes them to beep and run out of capacity eventually. It also can cause an old time synchronous clock to run fast or slow. Those are not modern day problems for me. As you mention, it was developed for grid stability and as a result the utilities no longer garantee a strick 60 Hz signal. A Some UPS manufacturers are widening the tolerance for frequency variation for their devices, but then with a good hybrid inverter, who needs a UPS?

I am happy to have a little frequency shifting if it makes the grid more stable. My hybrid inverter reacts so fast in backup mode that my digital clocks and routers don't reset. I have eliminated the need for a UPS. I also don't mind being called odd because the $$$ spent on my hybrid system are giving me a good payback. It has allowed me to leverage a less expensive GT system so I have enough capacity to weather the power outages that are becoming more frequent. It has also allowed me to leverage the ever changing TOU time periods to hedge my investment in photo voltaic energy.

[Ampster]

...... I'm curious how you tied batteries into the QS1 system. ....

In addition to the application note I posted above, here is a single line diagram from Outback:

AC coupling SL.pdf

[Mike90250]

.......The engineering is done by companies like Outback, Sol Ark and others.......

The original poster was fishing for an answer for a DIY/homebrew setup, and that's not possible for the average Joe or Karen.

[scrambler]

The original poster was fishing for an answer for a DIY/homebrew setup, and that's not possible for the average Joe or Karen.

For the record, I was not fishing for anything, I was curious about technology.

I myself have a hybrid inverter with a battery and do not require any of that.

Strange mentality in this neck of the woods if you ask me.

[NewBostonConst]

I like how worried about the frequency shift some are. The spec it 60.5 hz the inverters shut off. Should check your generator and see how much frequency shift it has. You would be surprised anything runs...sarcasm...

yes the diysolarforum is a much calmer group though their are more RV/Bus builders and hackers. When I come on here the movie grump old men comes to mind and it cracks me up. There are a lot of great people on here but sum just get stuck not wanting to acknowledge there are new and better ways to do things.

As Ampster has said hooking up these hybrid inverters is not all that hard. You have an inverter box; connect grid to the grid input, connect batteries to the battery input, connect the output to your critical loads panel, and it you have a generator connect that(power plus the normal 2 wire gen start contact closure circuit). That is it.....you are done wiring except ground. You could put in a ground rod near it would be best but not required. Wire size and breaker sizing has to be followed as normal.

The actual hardest thing is programming them. They have so many options depending on it you are net zero at the end of the day, off grid, backup, ups, net metering.....then the batteries and charge parameters.

[Mike90250]

..........

Strange mentality in this neck of the woods if you ask me.

And you have the whole internet of things to explore and find Yes men to justify anything from Flat Earth, to unlimited free water.

I give cautious advice, and only what I am knowledgeable about. I have to be careful, as a moderator, to not give incorrect information, because in the age of youtube, there is lots of BS, ligation, and ambulance chasing lawyers.

I cannot stop anyone from doing foolish things, and will not encourage dangerous experiments with high voltage. Locally, I know of over half a dozen redneck engineered, household sized, Li battery systems that have burned, several have started small brushfires.

The average "Larry with a Ladder" handyperson, is not capable of learning enough to gather parts and assemble a working, reliable and safe, micro-grid. Sure a caveman can be taught to change spark plugs in a car, and maybe drive it, but anything more is a mystery.

If you have an EE or years of experience in the power industry, then it's easy enough to learn the lingo and what happens when the button is pushed, But there is some deep background knowledge needed to do this safely and reliably.

[NewBostonConst]

And you have the whole internet of things to explore and find Yes men to justify anything from Flat Earth, to unlimited free water.

I give cautious advice, and only what I am knowledgeable about. I have to be careful, as a moderator, to not give incorrect information, because in the age of youtube, there is lots of BS, ligation, and ambulance chasing lawyers.

I cannot stop anyone from doing foolish things, and will not encourage dangerous experiments with high voltage. Locally, I know of over half a dozen redneck engineered, household sized, Li battery systems that have burned, several have started small brushfires.

The average "Larry with a Ladder" handyperson, is not capable of learning enough to gather parts and assemble a working, reliable and safe, micro-grid. Sure a caveman can be taught to change spark plugs in a car, and maybe drive it, but anything more is a mystery.

If you have an EE or years of experience in the power industry, then it's easy enough to learn the lingo and what happens when the button is pushed, But there is some deep background knowledge needed to do this safely and reliably.

Yes, I agree....most instance an electrican should inspect work that is done. Just letting people know there is now a option is a plus.....have a great day...

[Ampster]

Yes, I agree....most instance an electrican should inspect work that is done...

And I would add that a building permit is required. I would not be surprised that the fires referred to came from unpermitted off grid setups which until recently were fairly common to the industry in that area.

[Ampster]

....
Strange mentality in this neck of the woods if you ask me.

Every forum is different. I probably frequent a half dozen and spend time where my interests lie. Currently I am upgrading my pack and the Lithium expertise on diyelectriccar.com has always been thorough. Even though there is an ocassional EV drag racer there, I have yet to hear of any fires. There is a preference for the safer LFP chemistry on that forum.

I have to rationalize that sometimes the biggest benefit I get from some forums with attitude is that it is good practice for dealing with my 85 year old sister.

[scrambler]

I have to rationalize that sometimes the biggest benefit I get from some forums with attitude is that it is good practice for dealing with my 85 year old sister.

You are right, it is a good practice of the "Be Zen, let it go" principle

[scrambler]

And you have the whole internet of things to explore and find Yes men to justify anything from Flat Earth, to unlimited free water.

I give cautious advice, and only what I am knowledgeable about. I have to be careful, as a moderator, to not give incorrect information, because in the age of youtube, there is lots of BS, ligation, and ambulance chasing lawyers.

I cannot stop anyone from doing foolish things, and will not encourage dangerous experiments with high voltage. Locally, I know of over half a dozen redneck engineered, household sized, Li battery systems that have burned, several have started small brushfires.

The average "Larry with a Ladder" handyperson, is not capable of learning enough to gather parts and assemble a working, reliable and safe, micro-grid. Sure a caveman can be taught to change spark plugs in a car, and maybe drive it, but anything more is a mystery.

If you have an EE or years of experience in the power industry, then it's easy enough to learn the lingo and what happens when the button is pushed, But there is some deep background knowledge needed to do this safely and reliably.

No issue with all that, and I appreciate the feedback generally given.

I just let the unwarranted and slightly condescending "Fishing" jab get under my skin for a second

Moving on

[solardreamer]

I like how worried about the frequency shift some are. The spec it 60.5 hz the inverters shut off. Should check your generator and see how much frequency shift it has. You would be surprised anything runs...sarcasm...

Inverter generators have not problem providing clean power within stable frequency in the range of 59.5-60.5Hz. There are many cases of problems (e.g. microwave ovens, home automation systems, clocks, UPS, etc.) of devices that do not work properly or get damaged with frequency shifted power. It's great if it works for your situation and you are willing to check all devices you may add in the future to ensure compatibility. I just don't see that as ready for mass market kind of thing. The hybrid inverters manufacturers don't point out the potential problems and the average consumers would naturally not expect expensive home battery backup power systems to have such problems.

[Ampster]

........ I just don't see that as ready for mass market kind of thing. The hybrid inverters manufacturers don't point out the potential problems and the average consumers would naturally not expect expensive home battery backup power systems to have such problems.

It is a reality in California where with Rule 21 the power companies can use frequency shifting if they need to curtail roof top solar if the grid gets stressed. They no longer guaranty 60Hz. It hasn't happened yet but it is definitely a prime time reality.I am sure the UPS manufacturers have modified their specs and I haven't seen one of those sychronous clocks in years. We get a much more accurate time signal from our computers and cell phones.

Remember, California has a large percentage of solar build out and new legislation started this year mandating Net Zero energy home construction. Most new homes will probably have solar or some contracted solar farm purchase agreement built into the purchase price. So the belly of the duck curve will get very interesting and the grid has to be able to manage it.

In fact Rule 21 it has spurred a prepper mentality where some people are paranoid about the power companies ability to knock their GT solar off line. There is a conspiracy theory that they will do that so they won't have to pay for rooftop solar . Jack Rickard devoted a whole segment of EVTV to that possibility and there is a Youtuber with the name Energy Sovereignty Project who put in four Tesla Powerwalls.

You must not live on the Left Coast. We are on the bleeding edge of technology out here. It is so crazy that I think it is possible that I might get paid to charge my EVs in the middle of the day. That is better that being paid to take delivery of a tanker full of oil. Strange times.

NB: Rule 21 began in 2017 and was phase in.

[solardreamer]

It is a reality in California where with Rule 21 the power companies can use frequency shifting if they need to curtail roof top solar if the grid gets stressed. They no longer guaranty 60Hz. It hasn't happened yet but it is definitely a prime time reality.I am sure the UPS manufacturers have modified their specs and I haven't seen one of those sychronous clocks in years. We get a much more accurate time signal from our computers and cell phones.

Remember, California has a large percentage of solar build out and new legislation started this year mandating Net Zero energy home construction. Most new homes will probably have solar or some contracted solar farm purchase agreement built into the purchase price. So the belly of the duck curve will get very interesting and the grid has to be able to manage it.

In fact Rule 21 it has spurred a prepper mentality where some people are paranoid about the power companies ability to knock their GT solar off line. There is a conspiracy theory that they will do that so they won't have to pay for rooftop solar . Jack Rickard devoted a whole segment of EVTV to that possibility and there is a Youtuber with the name Energy Sovereignty Project who put in four Tesla Powerwalls.

You must not live on the Left Coast. We are on the bleeding edge of technology out here. It is so crazy that I think it is possible that I might get paid to charge my EVs in the middle of the day. That is better that being paid to take delivery of a tanker full of oil. Strange times.

NB: Rule 21 began in 2017 and was phase in.

Of course they don't guarantee exactly 60Hz but there is a range for normal operations just like they don't guarantee exactly 120V. Frequency shifting inverters haver been around for decade plus so it's not like some bleeding edge technology. In fact, I consider it an old hack that should have been fixed by now. You can have your opinion but the fact is that it still causes problems for even people using "modern" devices including clocks (see 9:05 mark in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFfxn2-iSGk).

BTW, I am in the Bay Area and I am all for solar power and even home battery backup system but I just don't think an expensive backup power system should intentionally put out dirty power to loads ever. It's fine if they need shift frequency to modulate grid-tied inverters but just don't put that power out to device loads.