How much did I save? How many kWh did we use last month?

[discodanman45]

Sorry. I did not mean to yell.

There are some members that live in CA that think everything revolves around them so all of their justifications for pv is a no brainer. I really wish pv could be easily justified throughout the US but even with the lower costs of hardware it is very hard to justify for me and others.

Without net-metering it is very hard to justify solar at all. There really needs to be some sort of credit given to every solar customer in the US since you are feeding the grid. Maybe not a 1 to 1 credit, but something. I also agree that in California solar it is too easy just to install solar with total disregard to everything else. Policies that try to encourage use can be just as bad as having no incentive. Also with the price of gas being $4 a gallon and going up today with an extra 6 cent tax starting today, it makes solar the best decision for driving cars. Buy a cheap used BMW i3 or Leaf and use it as your daily driver would save you tons of $$$ as well.

[J.P.M.]

Agreed - with the exception of Hawaii. With residential prices hitting 40 cents/kwhr, even zero-export systems often make economic sense (once the aforementioned efficiency improvements have been researched.)

Well, I did say most areas. I'd also wonder what the landed/installed cost of PV in HI might be, given that most everything is more expensive (except, BTW, turning stuff off).

[SunEagle]

Without net-metering it is very hard to justify solar at all. There really needs to be some sort of credit given to every solar customer in the US since you are feeding the grid. Maybe not a 1 to 1 credit, but something. I also agree that in California solar it is too easy just to install solar with total disregard to everything else. Policies that try to encourage use can be just as bad as having no incentive. Also with the price of gas being $4 a gallon and going up today with an extra 6 cent tax starting today, it makes solar the best decision for driving cars. Buy a cheap used BMW i3 or Leaf and use it as your daily driver would save you tons of $$$ as well.

Thanks for understanding. The problem is because my electric rate and usage is low even Net Metering (which I can get) calculates out to more than 10 years payback. It just doesn't make sense for me to install pv.

I also do not have a garage so even if I decide to get an EV I would have to spend a lot of money to run power to a new panel for the charger. Oh by the way gas here (at least yesterday) was about $2.45/gal.

[funguy11]

You have the order precisely backwards. And, (this will read like absolute heresy) believe it or not, there are more than a few scenarios where residential PV cannot be economically justified, and lots more where systems have been way oversized beyond cost effectiveness.

In most every case, for most bang for your long term buck, and in some loose priority:

Start with an energy audit. It'll probably point to:

1.) Stop wasting energy - start by turning stuff off, and/or lifestyle changes as appropriate. Think !
2.) Add conservation measures like sealing/insulating. Do the sealing first.
3.) Depending on what the energy audit finds, clean/repair old appliances. Start with cleaning/replacing HVAC filters and cleaning refrigerator coils. Replace cheap stuff like lightbulbs and thermostats first, but don't put off big replacements like fridges/A/C any longer than necessary.

4.) And, in the end, since PV is about the least cost effective way to reduce an electric bill, make PV the 2d last thing your do - if at all, before new windows - which may be nice, but usually can't be justified from an energy cost saving standpoint.

If long term cost effectiveness has any place in the priority of reducing an electric bill, common sense says do the most cost effective stuff first.

Throwing expensive PV at a high energy bill before doing all the more cost effective things to reduce the bill is doing it precisely backwards, but PV peddlers and their green wash media shills have most of the solar and energy ignorant public B.S.'d.

There are other reasons for residential solar besides economic. People want the security of solar + battery knowing that if there is a power outage for an extended time (which is very possible given the state of the US power grid), they and their family will have electricity. Also, solar improves the environment and results in reduced pollution. My friend spent 25k on windows and one of his justifications was the energy saving. Obviously, for him, a purchase of solar panels vs windows would have made more financial sense.

[discodanman45]

Thanks for understanding. The problem is because my electric rate and usage is low even Net Metering (which I can get) calculates out to more than 10 years payback. It just doesn't make sense for me to install pv.

I also do not have a garage so even if I decide to get an EV I would have to spend a lot of money to run power to a new panel for the charger. Oh by the way gas here (at least yesterday) was about $2.45/gal.

For $21,000 I basically paid for 100% of my electric needs for a 3100 sqft house in an area that can reach over 110 degrees and driving 40,000 miles a year where gas is $4 a gallon. Even California policies favor the wealthy by being able to afford this huge cost cutting measure.

[funguy11]

For $21,000 I basically paid for 100% of my electric needs for a 3100 sqft house in an area that can reach over 110 degrees and driving 40,000 miles a year where gas is $4 a gallon. Even California policies favor the wealthy by being able to afford this huge cost cutting measure.

Did you see LA just signed an agreement to buy utility scale solar at 2 cents a watt and to buy battery storage for 1.3 cents a KwH?

[J.P.M.]

There are other reasons for residential solar besides economic. People want the security of solar + battery knowing that if there is a power outage for an extended time (which is very possible given the state of the US power grid), they and their family will have electricity. Also, solar improves the environment and results in reduced pollution. My friend spent 25k on windows and one of his justifications was the energy saving. Obviously, for him, a purchase of solar panels vs windows would have made more financial sense.

Yes there are, and I'm completely aware of that, probably more than a lot of other folks. But notice my comments were and are specifically referenced to economic/cost effectiveness issues.

[Ampster]

Did you see LA just signed an agreement to buy utility scale solar at 2 cents a watt and to buy battery storage for 1.3 cents a KwH?

Hopefully those prices trickle down to the consumer level in some form or another. LADWP already has lower rates than the surrounding Southern California Edison market. This is an interesting trend which began not too long ago when they walked away from their investment in a coal plant in Arizona.

[jflorey2]

Hopefully those prices trickle down to the consumer level in some form or another.

Unlikely. With utilities getting sued by everyone and their brother for causing fires, and CA utilities having to pay for San Onofre decommissioning - we will be lucky if prices don't rise _too_ fast.

[Ampster]

Unlikely. With utilities getting sued by everyone and their brother for causing fires, and CA utilities having to pay for San Onofre decommissioning - we will be lucky if prices don't rise _too_ fast.

I agree rates probably wont go down but the cost of batteries and solar panels might continue to decline if tariffs don't eat away that cost reduction.

[funguy11]

I agree rates probably wont go down but the cost of batteries and solar panels might continue to decline if tariffs don't eat away that cost reduction.

battery and solar prices will decline steadily over the next 10 years and solar panel efficiency will continue to climb.

[peakbagger]

I will point out that a hot water recirculation system is a pretty evil thing that power companies love. Typically water piping is not insulated well if at all and its in a interior space, its effectively electric hot water heating running 24/7 while the air conditioning is running. Not sure what the prior hot water heater was but if it was gas and you shifted to heat pump based unit that would add load.

[bcroe]

I will point out that a hot water recirculation system is a pretty evil thing that power companies love. Typically water piping is not insulated well if at all and its in a interior space, its effectively electric hot water heating running 24/7 while the air conditioning is running.

It might be a lot less evil if the pipes have been carefully insulated, and most months involve heating,
not air conditioning. Bruce Roe

[J.P.M.]

It might be a lot less evil if the pipes have been carefully insulated, and most months involve heating,
not air conditioning. Bruce Roe

Bruce, there are many parts of the country where residential heating is not a consideration for most of the year. Even if it is, and even with careful insulation, it's still an uncontrolled heat load.

Residential hot water recirc. systems are energy hogs sold to ignorant people for the purpose of contractors making more money. There are better, cheaper and much more efficient ways to produce the same results.

[bcroe]

Residential hot water recirc. systems are energy hogs sold to ignorant people for the purpose of contractors making more money. There are better, cheaper and much more efficient ways to produce the same results.

I have not found another way to have instant hot water all over this strung out ranch.
Insulation and a controlled, efficient pump are in place, but the remaining energy loss
is being supplied for free from the sun. Bruce Roe