Power company not giving credit for power produced

[bkelly]

Hello,
New member and my first post. A short review did not find a topic similar to this so am posting.
Summary: The power company is not giving us credit for all the power we generate. Is the common? Is there something we can do?
Details
We installed a solar system on our home with 24 panels and three batteries. The inverters and batteries are Enphase. Paid cash. The Enphase reports for the Jan-Feb bill shows we produced 969 kWh of electricity and consumed 232 kWh.
The SDGE, San Diego Gas and Electric, shows we imported 618 kWh and exported 490 kWh.
We contacted SDGE and they are clearly not interested in our numbers. We contacted the company that has the warranty contract and cannot get a good response from them.
What can we do? Is this a common problem? I suspect that it is common for power companies to not give full credit.
Thoughts: Are there people who can visit our home and measure the power being consumed and produced? Maybe if we get a third party to verify numbers, we can get the attention of SDGE.

[J.P.M.]

Once in a while, SDG & E makes a billing error. However, such instances are rare.
Most of the time PV owners think the POCO, in this case SDG & E, is screwing them when in reality the owners make the mistake of thinking that their monitoring system numbers and SDG & E's numbers are referring to the same things. For the most part, they probably are not.

The above statement may make me sound like an apologist for the POCO, but I'm not a big fan of SDG & E. When I first got my system, I thought SDG & E was screwing me. After some digging and rooting around in their and the CPUC's literature and published stuff, I found a rat's nest of details that all add up to the usual fact that their billing and policies and the policies of the CPUC, while deeply layered and convoluted, are what they (SDG & E) follow most all of the time.
However, that's not to say that errors don't happen.
What it does say is that they make little to no effort in making their billing practices and how they interpret CPUC directives clear.

However, after close to 20 years of trying to help neighbors in my HOA avoid being screwed by both PV peddlers and SDG & E, I've found that most PV owners, lessees and PPA'ers are clueless about both what they bought, what their monitoring systems are reporting, and how to read and understand the particulars as to just how and what SDG & E is charging them for.

Many of my neighbors think I suck because I often tell them what they don't want to hear - usually that they didn't do the most cost-effective thing with respect to installing PV in the first place, and then tell them that they don't understand that SDG & E is most likely not in error with their billing - especially if I try to walk them through their bill(s) and try explain the errors in their thinking with respect to SDG & E's billing.

Now, I readily admit and shout from the rooftops that SDG & E is more than a little cryptic and less than forthcoming in explaining how their billing system works, but believe me, if one digs deep enough, the explanations of their billing terms and practices, and the definitions of terms they use can be found.

Howeber, SDG & E is in the business of selling power, not teaching the ins/outs of how they bill for their product.
That's left as an exercise for the SDG & E customers.

I'm pretty sure a way out of your confusion can be had with some diligent and persistent digging.
At least it was for me.
I'd respectfully suggest you start by understanding all the terms used by both Enphase and SDG & E.
Then, and with further digging, if you do become convinced SDG & E made an error, you'll have the necessary power to speak intelligently to SDG& E about it.

Welcome to the forum of few(er) illusions.

[bkelly]

Hello J.P.M.,
Interesting response. Thank you.

As you appear to be familiar with SDGE, have you any places I can look to find the information needed?

Enphase tracks my system quite closely. I ran the reports for Jan and Feb, then stitched together the numbers for my billing period. From the Enphase report, the system generated 969,286 watt hours and noted that I consumed 323,920 watt hours. It says my system exported 703,661 and imported 29,867. The SDGE bill says my system imported 618 kWh and exported 490 kWh. This sounds like a direct and fundamental disagreement. As noted, this system has 24 full panels, about 6 feet long by almost 3 feet wide. I suspect the generation numbers are correct. But note, suspect. I don't know how to verify those numbers. Both SDGE and Enphase have some reason to pad their numbers a bit. Suggestions please.
Why might the numbers be wrong? How might I re-interpret these numbers?

[Mike 134]

I'll just jump in here with a WAG. For Enphase to measure your ins and outs requires the correct size current transformers to be installed in the correct location to give accurate numbers. I have a different manufacturer than you, but I needed to program in the size rating of the current transformers for the system to accurately track my usage. Like I said at the start it's a wild guess but should be verified.

[bkelly]

Hello Mike,
Hmmm, don’t know what to think. Each of the 24 solar panels has its own micro inverter. There are three batteries, each with their own control electronics. All the electronics is Enphase. The entire setup has a cell phone adapter and/or internet adapter. The site can be accessed remotely at any time. Enphase collect the data on a regular basis, meaning every 15 minutes. The report I ran came from Enphase.

I see a significant gap in the SDGE numbers (San Diego Gas and Electric, the power company) and the Enphase numbers. Is there a way to reconcile those numbers? Or a way to put pressure on SDGE to get credit for what Enphase claims the system produces?

[Mike 134]

But in your electric panel there has to be current transformers installed that are wired to "something" to report how much power you are using. Otherwise, Enphase could only report what you generated it would have no idea how much was used by you and how much was sent to the power company.

[solardreamer]

Be aware that Enphase CT's used to monitor production and consumption are often installed incorrectly.

[J.P.M.]

Hello J.P.M.,
Interesting response. Thank you.

As you appear to be familiar with SDGE, have you any places I can look to find the information needed?

Yes.
1.) Your bill.
2.) The SDG & E website. Root around some. Look for net metering help. They can be particularly helpful with PV installation questions.
3.) Call SDG & E, talk to a human and explain that you need help understanding their procedures and rules. Before that, read your bill and see what guidance you can get from reading the definitions of terms on that bill.
4.) Check out the CPUC website.

Whether you know it or not, you need a lot of information and a lot of it is convoluted. As I wrote prior, SDG & E does not make it easy to understand how all this works but they don't make too many mistakes in their billing.
However, if they are wrong, you will need to prove it to them and at this time you don't have the specific knowledge you need to avoid wasting your time and theirs on an inadequately informed chase. The answers you seek are available, but the work needed to find them is up to you.
The answers you seek are there with some digging, diligence and perseverance.
There is no way to spoon feed this stuff.
If you want fast, short answers there is no way I know of that will get them for you.
That may not be what you want to hear but it's the best answer I have.

[bkelly]

J.P.M., You make valid points. I don't know exactly what I will do to resolve this. Today I wrote a letter to the installer, the company that carries the warranty, and to Enphase. The letter detailed the problem. It is mostly directed to the warranty people with the complaint that the output is either not up to the install specification or that the power company is not giving proper credit. In either case, I am paying electric bills I should not be paying therefore the system is not performing as it should. I will see what happens.
Thank you for your post.

[J.P.M.]

J.P.M., You make valid points. I don't know exactly what I will do to resolve this. Today I wrote a letter to the installer, the company that carries the warranty, and to Enphase. The letter detailed the problem. It is mostly directed to the warranty people with the complaint that the output is either not up to the install specification or that the power company is not giving proper credit. In either case, I am paying electric bills I should not be paying therefore the system is not performing as it should. I will see what happens.
Thank you for your post.

You are welcome. I don't know how valid any thing I wrote may be, but that approach usually gets the best results for me.
I believe more self-education will help you resolve what I believe to be an information void.
It's sort of like you're trying to get into an elevator that's already gone up 4 feet and no one wants to give you a hand up.
Well, you have the tools and the brains to help yourself.
The tools are the sources I mentioned as well as further sources of information to be found within those sources.

Rant mode on.

IMO, most folks these days (and probably in the past as well but more so now it seems) simply give up, roll over, take it in the shorts and do little more than bitch about how badly they are getting screwed while the reality is often that they are simply misinformed but will do little in the way of persistently and logically digging into the matter to seek resolution.

If they do dig in and root around in the facts and reality of the matter, while they find things they believe to be unfair (for sure), doing so most often gets them the information which leads to the knowledge to see that either the POCO is right or the POCO made an error (in my experience, usually the former but not always).
Either way, the experience has usually been a path that's resulted in a situation where they've got more knowledge tools to help get to a resolution to their angst and maybe their situation.

Bottom line: The tools are there but you've got to do the heavy lifting.
Self-help is the best help and often the only reliable help.

One other tip: Nothing can replace persistence.

Rant mode off.

The information above is deemed accurate but still no more than opinion.
Results are not guaranteed.
Your results will probably vary.
Take what you want of the above.
Scarp the rest.

Good luck.

[DanS26]

There is another approach here that will cost you a few dollars but should resolve the issues. Add another monitoring system to your panel. Thirteen years ago I added a TED monitoring system to supplement the Fronius and POCO systems. It worked great. Having three monitoring systems allows you to immediately find the culprit with bad numbers or more likely educates you to where discrepancies exist.

TED is not available anymore but systems like Emporia should allow you to get the information you need to confront the issues. Two systems you have finger pointing....three systems you have reconciliation.

[DanS26]

I forgot to mention....I actually have four monitoring systems. The SREC lawyers I use to sell my SRECs required a utility grade meter to verify the Kwh I produce. Each month I report total production and reconcile to Fronius, POCO and TED. It makes for a virtuous circle.

[J.P.M.]

There is another approach here that will cost you a few dollars but should resolve the issues. Add another monitoring system to your panel. Thirteen years ago I added a TED monitoring system to supplement the Fronius and POCO systems. It worked great. Having three monitoring systems allows you to immediately find the culprit with bad numbers or more likely educates you to where discrepancies exist.

TED is not available anymore but systems like Emporia should allow you to get the information you need to confront the issues. Two systems you have finger pointing....three systems you have reconciliation.

Dan: That strikes me as analogous to the situation of owning multiple timepieces and so never knowing the correct time.

[Mike 134]

I forgot to mention....I actually have four monitoring systems. The SREC lawyers I use to sell my SRECs required a utility grade meter to verify the Kwh I produce. Each month I report total production and reconcile to Fronius, POCO and TED. It makes for a virtuous circle.

I'm guessing the first 3 meters were not utility grade for your SRECs? Just curious what does your state pay for SRECs? $83.00 here in Illinois.

[DanS26]

The SRECTrade lawyers required a picture and model # of a utility grade meter before they would submit my system for SREC payments. I live in Indiana but this state does not participate in SRECs. But the great state of Ohio was willing to buy my production. Its not much....currently ~$1.50 per Mwh. I've received $2,776 total in the last 13 years from Ohio.

That's a great deal if you live in Illinois......I wonder how long it will be before the tax payers wake up.

My metering story is sorta interesting. When I installed my solar system the POCO installed a two way meter that showed power I purchased then power I sold to them and the Net of those two numbers in a series of flashing numbers on the meter. That was sorta neat but it did not and could not indicate the amount of solar power I consumed in my house. So I installed the TED system to gather information to determine internal solar consumption. Immediately there was a big discrepancy and I challenged the POCO with my numbers. A long story short they came out and tested the meter and said it was good. I rechecked my TED system and found a CT clamp not fully seated. My bad and I had some apologizing to do.

The SRECTrade lawyers said the TED system was not accurate enough since it was rated to be within 5% accuracy and they said that was not good enough. They also would not accept the Fronius measurements that are created internal to the inverters. They were right there also since I have determined that the Fronius numbers are consistently overstated. So I purchased and installed an EMON system. It uses CT clamps also but they are industrial grade and very accurate. EMON measurements were acceptable to SRECTrade.

I reconcile all these measurements every month and know my system inside out even to the point of recreating the POCO billing statement to the penny. I can recreate multiple billing programs such as TOU and seasonal variations so I can choose the best billing for my type of usage. The solar project is a hobby so I don't mind these monthly tasks.