Inverter Life Study - 15 years

[Ampster]

Yep. The saga of Sol-Ark has been sad to watch. They initially sold a Deye inverter as "100% US manufactured" and got caught. Then they scrambled to get a new product built and certified, and they did it pretty much the way you describe - exactly the same parts and sheet metal, but now built at a twin plant and called US-made.

Yes, I was intially sceptical of SolArk and their claims. I have been a long time user and supporter of Outback products. Over the last two years I have been exposed to a number of users who have had very good experiences with their SolArks. Eventually I evaluated the features offered by a SolArk and compared them to the features in the new Outback Mohawk and realized for the same dollars I could have more functionality and features with a SolArk. The final decision was that I found one in stock an Greentech Renewables which said to me that it had become mainstream. It is also on the CEC list. It has not disapointed me.

[jflorey2]

"Made in USA" means next to nothing as current laws allow products to have 100% of the parts manufactured outside the country and sent to Mexico and put into packaging and then transported into the USA and thanks to NAFTA they can be labeled as Made in the USA. U.S. tariffs reflect this with changes over time with the tariff rates based on the needs of U.S. manufacturers.

Yep. The saga of Sol-Ark has been sad to watch. They initially sold a Deye inverter as "100% US manufactured" and got caught. Then they scrambled to get a new product built and certified, and they did it pretty much the way you describe - exactly the same parts and sheet metal, but now built at a twin plant and called US-made.

[Calsun]

Rascism aside, I have worked for nearly 20 years with manufacturers in Taiwan (home of TSMC the world's largest chip manufacturer) and China. In China they have multiple quality levels with the top tier referred to as German quality and the middle tier as Japan quality as those are the intended destinations. In the USA we often get Wal-Mart or Harbor Freight quality as most people are too cheap to invest in high quality products.

Many German companies have been having their tools made in Taiwan or China and Bosch is now having some of its industrial tools produced in Cambodia. The top manufacturers monitor the manufacturing done overseas to insure a high level of quality control as they do not want to damage their reputation.

A key difference in some European countries is that the government can dictate warranty coverage and that products be designed for be recycled. In the USA this protection varies widely by state and is usually at a much lower level in terms of protecting consumers in any way.

"Made in USA" means next to nothing as current laws allow products to have 100% of the parts manufactured outside the country and sent to Mexico and put into packaging and then transported into the USA and thanks to NAFTA they can be labeled as Made in the USA. U.S. tariffs reflect this with changes over time with the tariff rates based on the needs of U.S. manufacturers. When they decide to produce a category of products overseas they also lobby to have the U.S. tariffs lowered or eliminated completely.

[Keepsake]

I had 4 strings at 11 panels initially. Then with adding of panels got to 12 panels, into 2 IG5100's. Now with only one and panel degregation, I have 4 strings of 10 panels each into the remaining IG. Had to climb around on roof to rewire panels being shed due to burnt inverter. Rewire beacuse the energy was going into a second mppt60 with a dc 150 volt limit. I do now hit clipping mid-day with 40 panels into on 5k IG. This remaining IG had a bad fan, that froze. That condition caused the logic sinking the fan current to open circuit. I got replacement fan from dead IG and I am powering the minus side of both fans from one board, not individually as was the way it was deisnged. So both fans run when one board is calling for air. To be sure to keep things cool enough, added a 5 ohm resistor on the minus side of the fans to chassis. This maintains some airflow at all times.

[bcroe]

Temps here range -20F to 95F, maybe slightly less extreme inside, actually
beyond the rating in the book. Running 720 cells in series, (10 X 72 or
12 X 60), MPPT 360V summer to 420V winter, OC somewhat below 600
limit. I may be running higher V and lower A, might make a difference. In
the first 2 years I noted wires heated a bit, comstant daily cycling could
loosen some connections. I kept after them, retighten, less trouble after
a few years, but my failures were burned out wiring.

Running more current, your tendency to work loose and damage connections
might be worse. Bruce Roe

[Keepsake]

Mine went in in October 2011. There are outside in Florida, 33523, under a front porch. Never get wet. Spaced two feet apart, two feet below the outside ceiling. Since I have two, they have 'taken turns' at failing. Never both failed at same time. And never pushed beyond 4200 watts out. Never was there a field repairable condition. Advance replacements were authorized but I had to get a authorized tech in here to diagnosis. Over time strings of 10 to 12 panels with never a voltage over 420 open circuit occurred. The last failure was an internal fire that burn one of the boards. Looks like a FET or 3-terminal component failure under a heatsink. Line voltage averages 242 at night to 257 daytime. Had multiple internal fan failures over time.

Your being in Northern IL suggests ambient temps do come into play.

Also have Schneider Electric mppt60 and xw serties inverters that have never failed in 11 years.

[bcroe]

Got a burnt up Fronius IG5100 that was 11 1/2 years old. This was the fifth one they changed during the ten year warranty period. I was pissed each time when it took them two weeks to replace. Every day you are 'down' you will never get back.

I wonder why that is? At 10 years my pair of IG7500s are still
original. Working hard, every sunny day they are in clipping 8
hours straight. They are inside an unheated building, high
line voltage.

However, the IG spare is mounted next to them, just change
a couple wires to put it in service. Just like everything else
here. That is how we did it in the phone business.
Bruce Roe

[Keepsake]

Got a burnt up Fronius IG5100 that was 11 1/2 years old. This was the fifth one they changed during the ten year warranty period. I was pissed each time when it took them two weeks to replace. Every day you are 'down' you will never get back.

[brycenesbitt]

For example the Solis 1P7K and 1P7.6K inverters are the same hardware (electronics and heatsink) as the 1P6K, but with different firmware

Obviously in such a case there's no expected longevity difference.
Heat is a crucial issue for all electronics: the biggest thing you can do is shade or install your inverter such that it does not get direct sun.
Oversizing will work, as long as your bigger unit actually can dispense with more heat.

[peakbagger]

If I was a betting man, A Solis Inverter made by a firm called Ginlong Technologies that does not appear to list where the product is made in the world ( I can guess) would not be my choice for an inverter that will make it 10 years or longer and would be able to provide warranty support at some point in the future. Should they discover a longevity issue impacting their equipment, my guess is they are not going to answer the phone. Of the old favorite, customer must ship at own cost back to the manufacturer somewhere in China for them to "inspect" the equipment.

I would tend to bet on equipment built and designed in Europe like Fronius or SMA as in the EU they own the unit for its entire life cycle including making is easy to recycle. I would probably pay a premium for it.

Then again, I would also oversize the inverter, install it in the coolest place I could find and consider having a spare inverter around with a quality surge suppressor on the PV input lines and the main panel.

[Calsun]

I have more than 30 years of first hand experience with the design and engineering and manufacturing of industrial electronics equipment. Many places to cut costs and have greater profit margins and the buyer will hopefully not use the warranty coverage before the device fails. At what time manufacturer's did a literal burn-in of electronic devices and subjected them to elevated temperatures in special ovens for 24-48 hours and noted the failure rate. This practice has ended and so the burn-in is now down by the customer at their homes.

But the government agencies have long since stopped working to protect consumers so it comes down to the reputation of the companies and customer reviews. In 2012 there was too short a time period to be able to evaluate which companies would honor warranties for their products. It is easier now to see which manufactures and which importers who rebrand other companies products, as with Sunpower, provide good customer service after the sale.

Most people ignore problems that can be found on internet posts and think that a local installer will go to bat for them if their is a problem. This is unfortunately a naive perspective.

I bought an inverter with a 10-year warranty from Sunpower and they did not honor the warranty. My new Solis inverter has a 10-year warranty and time will tell if they will honor their warranty. There is more than enough toxic e-waste going into landfills and I prefer to do what I can to minimize my own contribution by purchasing electronic products with a track record of longevity. What I can afford and what the planet can afford and what we pass down to future generations are two very different things in the choices I make. I realize that is an uncommon and un-American approach to take.

[nerdralph]

There's very little good in knowing this past, as the new inverter generation could be totally different.

On the consumer side:

• Oversize the inverter, though at a potential cost of efficiency

I'm not convinced many of your suggestions would make a material difference. For example the Solis 1P7K and 1P7.6K inverters are the same hardware (electronics and heatsink) as the 1P6K, but with different firmware. So it's a waste to spend the extra money for the 7.6K when the 6K will do. Since the hardware is the same, a 1P6K should have a longer life than a 1P7.6K with the same DC:AC ratio, since the 7.6K will get hotter.

[brycenesbitt]

What good is knowing how long the inverters have lasted, when the manufacturers release a new generation of inverters about every 5 years?

Agreed: the new inverter generation could be totally different.

On the consumer side:

• Oversize the inverter, though at a potential cost of efficiency
• Shade the inverter, or better yet place it in a basement or crawl space protected from hot (especially) or cold.
• Work with a reputable installer who has some chance of being at your side in a decade, when the issue arises.

On the vendor side:

• Don't use electrolytic capacitors. If you do, include a service manual and make those parts replaceable.
• Oversize other capacitors, as capacitor drift is a major cause of long term failure.
• Thermally isolate the case, so sunlight has minimal effect on the internal electronics temperature.
• Make provisions for active cooling, such as in combination with a heat pump water heater.
• Do accelerated life testing with a reputable lab: heat, vibration, temperature cycling, load cycling.
• Include extensive internal monitoring of voltage thresholds and the like, so raise a service alarm before a failure. Include temperature and humidity sensors in designs.
• Don't use the latest technology and smallest feature sizes. Bigger is more long lasting.
• Work with fire chiefs on a mechanical way to do rapid shutdown, so no electronics need be on roofs.
• Build modular equipment, on the model of the Framework laptop, so that inverter chassis can serve for the lifetime of the rest of the install, even as new standards and needs come into play.

On the regulatory side:

• Require vendors on a level playing field to issue warranties of a particular length (for example like smoke detectors which have warranties for their useful lives).
• Require vendors to share with regulators longevity data, in anonymous form.
• Grandfather so simple capacity increases do not trigger inverter replacement (see above comment on modular inverters / Framework ).
• Find no-electronics alternatives to the rapid shutdown situation on roofs, such as clearly marked mechanical shutdowns.

[J.P.M.]

What good is knowing how long the inverters have lasted, when the manufacturers release a new generation of inverters about every 5 years?
I try to choose the highest efficiency of the lowest-cost inverters. Higher efficiency = lower temperatures, which should result in longer lifetime. That sweet spot has been the Solis 1P-4G-US series, but the new plus series is about 40% more expensive with around the same efficiency.

I've got Rube Goldberg type forced air cooling system for my inverter in the garage and it lowers the inverter to ambient temp. difference by about 40% under full sun loading from ~ 30 C to ~ 18 C. Parisitic load is ~ 70 W per a kill-a-watt meter.
Cheaper and more reliable than any warranty. Next cheapest is the spare inverter next to the one that's operating.

[nerdralph]

I have one data point, which is a dead SMA2500U Sunny Boy string inverter after 9 years in operation.
What it would really take is an EPA or utility requirement that all vendors share with researchers and regulators the service lifetime data they already collect on inverters.
This is important to understand the true environmental cost and benefits of solar as well.

What good is knowing how long the inverters have lasted, when the manufacturers release a new generation of inverters about every 5 years?
I try to choose the highest efficiency of the lowest-cost inverters. Higher efficiency = lower temperatures, which should result in longer lifetime. That sweet spot has been the Solis 1P-4G-US series, but the new plus series is about 40% more expensive with around the same efficiency.