Grid noise forcibly shuts down my two systems

[solarintexas]

I posted about a problem I had with one of my two systems back last fall:

https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum/solar-panels-for-home/solar-panel-system-equipment/429213-enphase-iq7-inverters-down-for-no-apparent-reason

The suspicion was that perhaps moisture had gotten into the cable connections.Turns out this is most likely not the case at all.

Here is my recent story:

1.) I have two solar arrays on my roof that are independent of each other. Array #1 is 4.5kW with an eight year old SunnyBoy 4kW string inverter. Array #2 is a 1.4kW array with one year old
Enphase IQ7+ micros.

2.) In the morning at 6.45am both systems are forced to shut down and remain locked out. My SMA Sunny Boy displays error code 1501 "reconnection fault grid". Once I disconnect and reconnect it, it starts up normally and produces as usual with no more interruptions during the day.

3.) My four IQ7+ micros, however, remain locked out during the day. They start producing again in the late afternoon. Since I only have four micros, I never got the Envoy unit, thus cannot do a readout. Manually cycling AC power to them will not help. I scoured the manual, and it does not give a good description of fault codes and how the inverters specifically respond to grid connection failures and what the lockout patterns are. I could not find any information in their technical literature at all, unfortunately.

I assume that grid noise/inconsistency happens to an extent that the inverters give up connecting and activate a lockout pattern that requires manual resetting. Very frustrating. It's only been three days in a row that this has been happening, but I am frustrated.

What would you do?
1.) Call the transmission company and lodge a complaint?
2.) Call SMA to perhaps increase the range of acceptable grid input on my string inverter?
3.) What to do about the four IQ7+ micros? Buying an Envoy is not a good monetary investment on this small array. Is there another way to access those?

[oregon_phil]

1) I would disable the Enphase system and run the SMA system by itself to see if the 1501 fault still occurs during startup in the morning. 1501 fault happens when "Grid frequency or grid voltage is outside the permissible range for reconnection to the utility grid". Grid could be Grid or Grid could be Grid + Enphase. What model SMA inverter do you have? Do you have the SMA web browser interface to see AC line variables?

[J.P.M.]

Since they're still under warranty,I'd start by calling the vendors who installed the systems.

[oregon_phil]

It is my impression that OP installed Enphase system himself about a year ago with SMA system running flawlessly until then.

[J.P.M.]

It is my impression that OP installed Enphase system himself about a year ago with SMA system running flawlessly until then.

So he did. I missed that from the prior tread.

[oregon_phil]

solarintexas , Additional searching on other forums regarding Enphase power glitches:

"Without the Envoy, they will just run at whatever settings they had before, and will make power and push to the grid. But if they are in the wrong grid code or had an old firmware, you won't be able to correct it."

"BEWARE: Enphase IQ7A micros may have misbehaving firmware that needs updating". IQ7+ 520-00082-r01-v04.27.04/10 firmware has known as 'Grid Instability' + 'No Grid Profile' error.
and, issues are improved (solved) for some case at firmware version 520-00082-r01-v04.28.07/03.

It seems like you need the Envoy to even figure out what firmware version is loaded on your microinverters.

[peakbagger]

Grid faults happen but must homeowners without solar do not realize it. Lots of possible grid issues, there could be capacitor bank or tap changer causing the grid to go out of limits. Some grid companies are proactive and will install a temporary data logger on your supply to see if its operating in range. In some cases the utility could care less and a formal complaint to the PUC may be required.

[SunEagle]

Grid faults happen but must homeowners without solar do not realize it. Lots of possible grid issues, there could be capacitor bank or tap changer causing the grid to go out of limits. Some grid companies are proactive and will install a temporary data logger on your supply to see if its operating in range. In some cases the utility could care less and a formal complaint to the PUC may be required.

I agree the grid changes and can fall outside it's normal operating parameters. Which is why a solar inverter turns off for a period of time. I was on a job up in Nevada where a high school with 1MW of panels kept going off line because they were on a feeder that also had a high load (big hp water pumps) that would turn on and off causing the grid to fluctuate and the solar inverters to go off line.

We partially solved the issue by changing the parameters of the solar inverters to be less sensitive and they stopped turning off. Now I am not sure what it may take to modify the OP's inverters but they may get farther asking the inverter company for help then going to the PUC to get the POCO to stabilize the grid.

[peakbagger]

I know of a couple of installations that started with opening up the grid tolerances. Both were Fronius and they called Fronius service. They were given a password to open up the parameters. In both cases it helped but did not solve the problem. Once the utility got involved and hooked up power quality meters, the problems got solved after a week or two. In both cases it was the local grid faults. One of them was a big capacitor bank on some large pumps that were racking in at the wrong time, the other case was an old hydroelectric plant with ancient controls that had been damaged in a flood, the utility was planning on getting rid of it so they were trying to control it from a remote dispatch center without the local control and letting the voltage go out of tolerance. In another case the utility had a tap changer on a transformer that had the wrong setpoints.

When wind turbines were starting to go on the grid the utilities used to fight the installations saying the large loads were screwing up the rural grids they were connected to. The folks who designed the wind turbines at my former employer claimed that in many cases they were getting blamed for problems with existing power quality issues already present. The NP turbines were Permanent Magnet turbines so they had power electronics anyhow to form a stable AC output so it wasnt that hard to put in power electronics to stiffen up the local grid. I think the AC turbines are equipped to do the same thing. .

BTW the normal utility approach is that its not their problem, they want the person making the complaint prove it to them. Unfortunately calibrated power quality meters are expensive and not many homeowners have access to them. In the two cases, Fronius could tell by the codes the inverters were throwing that it was grid overvoltage events that were taking the inverters out. The initial individual called the power company a few times and only when the PUC was brought up before they brought a power quality meter over and left it for a week.

[SunEagle]

I know of a couple of installations that started with opening up the grid tolerances. Both were Fronius and they called Fronius service. They were given a password to open up the parameters. In both cases it helped but did not solve the problem. Once the utility got involved and hooked up power quality meters, the problems got solved after a week or two. In both cases it was the local grid faults. One of them was a big capacitor bank on some large pumps that were racking in at the wrong time, the other case was an old hydroelectric plant with ancient controls that had been damaged in a flood, the utility was planning on getting rid of it so they were trying to control it from a remote dispatch center without the local control and letting the voltage go out of tolerance. In another case the utility had a tap changer on a transformer that had the wrong setpoints.

When wind turbines were starting to go on the grid the utilities used to fight the installations saying the large loads were screwing up the rural grids they were connected to. The folks who designed the wind turbines at my former employer claimed that in many cases they were getting blamed for problems with existing power quality issues already present. The NP turbines were Permanent Magnet turbines so they had power electronics anyhow to form a stable AC output so it wasnt that hard to put in power electronics to stiffen up the local grid. I think the AC turbines are equipped to do the same thing. .

BTW the normal utility approach is that its not their problem, they want the person making the complaint prove it to them. Unfortunately calibrated power quality meters are expensive and not many homeowners have access to them. In the two cases, Fronius could tell by the codes the inverters were throwing that it was grid overvoltage events that were taking the inverters out. The initial individual called the power company a few times and only when the PUC was brought up before they brought a power quality meter over and left it for a week.

I agree that Quality Meters are not something most homeowners have. My job allowed me to use a Fluke 435 which did a great job in capturing the issue. But they cost somewhere above $8k and require some understanding to set them up.

Still the POCO may be working on their grid problem if it is causing them issues. But most use capacitors to keep the voltage within spec but end up causing harmonics down the line which affect their customers. It is a bad situation which I feel more homeowner's solar will just aggravate the issue unless the POCO's are installing the system and hopefully have worked on controlling the side affects.

We are in a state of flux which will give some people heartburn and others more money.

[solarintexas]

Thanks all for your feedback. My Sunny Boy inverter is back to normal operations. No problems. Ever since the grid event, the four IQ7+ inverters are unpredictable. Sometimes they come on, sometimes they don't. Sometimes it's just one or two, sometimes all four are on. I can tell from my eGauge monitoring device.
Those IQ7+ were installed in May 2021 new out of the box by me. I have the serial numbers and have registered them with Enphase. I will open a warranty claim. I think that you might be right with the firmware problem. I WILL NOT spend another $500+ to get the Envoy. Waste of money for my small array. I hope that Enphase will send me updated replacement inverters. I will gladly send these back to them.

What a hassle. These products get released and then have issues. Not impressed with Enphase so far. Hopefully, their warranty service is better. In comparison, my SMA Sunny Boy hasn't skipped a beat in more than eight years.

[solarintexas]

Had a horrible experience with Enphase customer service. They cannot help me because they cannot "see" the problem because I don't have Envoy. Technically, their warranty is not tied to Envoy, since Enphase doesn't require the purchase of Envoy.

The offshore representative who assisted me was not helpful. I provided him with monitoring data to support my claim. He then sneakily told me that he had to talk to his superior about this and that I would hear from him later. Naturally, that was a nice way to get rid of me. He also didn't bother to look at the data. Not sure he even understands it or bothered to look at it closely.

I will keep fighting. I am putting together my own screenshots of my data monitor so I can submit them as evidence of the irregular production pattern of these inverters.

Aside from contacting the offshore reps. through their usual channel, does anyone know of a backchannel I can contact? If nothing works out, I will submit a detailed complaint with corroborating evidence to the corporate headquarters in the U.S.

In my view, this is a very clear warranty issue, and I will pursue this. Not impressed with Enphase so far at all. I also very much doubt that these inverters will actually last 25 years in the elements.

[oregon_phil]

If the system was activated after November 19, 2021 then warranty includes the paragraph:

The Covered Products should be continuously connected to the internet during the warranty period, except where interrupted by causes outside of the Covered Owner’s reasonable control. This will help ensure that potential defects in the Product can be diagnosed remotely and that the Product can receive over-the-air firmware updates

If the system was activated between January 1, 2021 and November 18, 2021 then the previous paragraph is not included in the warranty; system not required to be continuously connected to the internet.

But the warranty contains a very curious paragraph:

For the avoidance of doubt, software programs installed in the Covered Products and the recovery and reinstallation of such software programs and data are not covered under this Limited Warranty. Enphase does not warrant that the operations of the Covered Product will be uninterrupted or error-free. No Enphase employee or authorized reseller is authorized to make any modification, extension, or addition to this Limited Warranty. If any term of this Limited Warranty is held to be illegal or unenforceable, the legality or enforceability of the remaining terms shall not be affected or impaired.

This paragraph is vague and can be read many different ways. One way to read it: We don't cover reading your firmware/data or reinstalling firmware/data; product interruptions and errors happen.

From Enphase RMA process:

If in-field troubleshooting of the Enphase product is not able to be accomplished because the Envoy device does not exist or is not operational and the unit is determined upon receipt and testing by Enphase personnel as being fully operational (no trouble found), the owner will incur a $200 handling fee.

FWIW, the SMA system warranty has no reference to "must be connected to the internet" or anything about firmware/data exclusions.

Unfortunately, I do not know of a backchannel Enphase contact.

[solarintexas]

Hi Phil. Thanks so much for pulling this up. Very useful! I fall into the "not required" category (inverters purchased and commissioned in May 2021). When I get some time next week, I will put together a nice documented warranty claim and send it directly to their Austin office. I hate dealing with their offshore support. There seems to be a disconnect, and they don't strike me as readily wanting to help.

I suppose there is no known way to reset these inverters at least to factory setting? Naturally, I haven't disconnected them at the DC leads, assuming that any such reset would occur at night automatically. Currently, they are haphazardly coming on (or not). Today, for instance, they all came on simultaneously in the early afternoon. Annoying, but at least some electricity until I get this figured out. Once they come on, they stay on until sunset.

Would you agree that I need to receive replacement units before sending the old ones back? If the other way around, then all connections would be susceptible to moisture ingress.

[oregon_phil]

I am not an installer and have not owned Enphase equipment so there is limited additional help I can offer. You have about $600 worth of inverters and the envoy costs about $500, but you have no way to communicate with your Enphase devices.

For the SMA inverter, I assume you do not have a -40 and therefore do not have access to real time DC & AC variables.

I can only thing of two other things to try.

1) Keep both systems as is, if the SMA system starts up and the Enphase system doe not, then go read the LED's on the Enphase devices.



2) Turn off the SMA inverter and Turn On the Enphase system to see if there is an interaction problem. You already know the SMA inverter can run by itself.

BTW, I can't upload a PNG or JPG file either.