Best PG&E rate plan for NorCal?

[vracer]

I have just completed installation of a 3.3kW system. The final inspection has been signed off by the local building dept., but PG&E hasn't updated my meter yet. I know there are multiple use plans, (I'm presently in E8 XB, whatever that is) and that I can change plans once a year.

My useage varies from 800 kWh in winter to 1400 kWh in summer. I have a hilltop freestanding array that is 17* W. of S. at a 26* vertical angle. (I'm just shy of 38* N., and the vertical angle was planned to be 30*, but didn't end up that way. [Cheap rack.]) The westerly azimuth was chosen to maximize PM production.

I'm looking for opinions, facts, or ideas on the best rate plan for me.
Thanx,

[vracer]

I admit it. I am trying to piggy back on someone else's work, but what I find hard to believe is that all this study goes into picking the best panel, inverter, this, and that - and no one has done a study to maximize the amount of money PG&E will pay us for the final product.

[russ]

Oh! So someone is supposed to do that and hand it to you?

[Ian S]

I admit it. I am trying to piggy back on someone else's work, but what I find hard to believe is that all this study goes into picking the best panel, inverter, this, and that - and no one has done a study to maximize the amount of money PG&E will pay us for the final product.

I think part of the problem is the plethora of rate plans around the country. If your installer is experienced and aware that may be a source of information. IMHO, time of use plans are the best starting point for solar as peak solar production typically coincides with the highest rates for usage in a TOU plan. It will also depend on your own usage patterns. Here in Arizona, I've been on a combination TOU/Demand plan for years as that's always been the least cost for me based on an online comparison my utility provides based on my prior year's usage. Being on such a plan also provides me with the info I need for a calculation based on what my cost would have been had I been on various types of plans with solar for the past year. I was fortunate too to have access to a friend's online solar PV production account for a system similar to mine except smaller so I was able to estimate my monthly production - on and off peak - and compare it with my usage - on and off peak - for an entire year. I then used a spreadsheet to do the calculations of what my monthly bills would have been with solar. It's a bit of work but the annual differences among the available rate plans was in the hundreds of dollars with TOU coming out on top.

Essentially, I found that I would bank on-peak credits in the first five months of the year. These - along with additional summer on-peak production - would petty much carry me through the summer without the need to purchase additional on-peak energy. The last few months of the year, I would build up more on-peak credits and wind up in December being paid for them as the utility zeroes out my account. What I'd wind up doing is paying for a substantially reduced amount of off-peak energy that at the end of the year would be further offset by the lump sum payment. Note that my utility tracks off and on peak credits separately.

To summarize, you really have to do some homework that takes into account your usage patterns, PV system, and rate plans available to get the best plan. However, you can always change rate plans annually if you wind up making an error. Good luck!

[russ]

For daily predicted production try the Sharp Energy Calculator - plug in your zip code and a bill amount - then you can play with rate plans, orientation, tilt etc.

http://sharpusa.cleanpowerestimator.com/default.aspx

[cebury]

I have just completed installation of a 3.3kW system. The final inspection has been signed off by the local building dept., but PG&E hasn't updated my meter yet. I know there are multiple use plans, (I'm presently in E8 XB, whatever that is) and that I can change plans once a year.

My useage varies from 800 kWh in winter to 1400 kWh in summer. I have a hilltop freestanding array that is 17* W. of S. at a 26* vertical angle. (I'm just shy of 38* N., and the vertical angle was planned to be 30*, but didn't end up that way. [Cheap rack.]) The westerly azimuth was chosen to maximize PM production.

I'm looking for opinions, facts, or ideas on the best rate plan for me.
Thanx,

In case you haven't read it yet, here is PG&E explanation on how rate plans and baselines work.

http://www.pge.com/myhome/myaccount/charges/

E8 is the "Residential Seasonal Service Option" rate plan, X is your territory code, and B is the code for normal Baseline usage program. http://www.gosolarnow.com/pdf%20files/E8rateGraph.pdf

I don't know why the E8 rate exists (maybe before seasonal rates were implemented years ago), but it's not offered now and is grandfathered to previous users. The current rates under E8 are a tiny bit lower than the normal E1, so after glancing at the docs I can't see any large benefit of using it over today's normal E1 rates. Also, once you leave that rate structure you will not be allowed back.

RE: Switching rate plans: The installer really should have recommended this for you. Did they take your monthly kwh usage for a year and print out all the pretty graphs showing projected usage compared to your old usage, etc? I don't know of one online that will answer your question. But even if one existed, you'd need to know the key factors: 1) your daily usage profile (day vs. eve usage), 2) expected daily pv production profile (this is easily gathered online for your panels, location, etc) per comments above, 3) Any special conditions in your home: medical baseline, CARE reduced rates, electric vehicles, electric-only heated home, etc? For most people, the answer is no for #3. In that case, it's just a choice between E1 and E6 (TOU) or staying where you are.

You should consider reviewing all the stuff online and then calling PGE for their opinion. But if the answer isn't easy, they won't be of much help since your system is newly installed and thus you are lacking an accurate NET energy profile.

For folks with *appropriately* sized solar packages, it's a no-brainer they choose E6. But they're PV are sized such they expect to net OVER produce (ie generate more than used) during daylight hours, so you can "build up peak hour credit" to be used for free during the winter months. The size of your 3.3kwh system is not going to get you even 50% bill offset based on 800/1400kwh /month, so with that sized system it's even more critical you determine your daily usage profile (#1 above). If you have a SmartMeter installed already, you can login at PG&E's website and run all kinds of reports showing your usage by the hour. Examine how much falls into Off-peak, Partial-peak, and Peak (as listed below).

If somehow the vast majority of your usage is Off-Peak, then you should probably switch to
PG&E's E6 Rate Structure. If the vast majority of usage is Peak -- stay at E8 and see what happens. The hard decision is when it's somewhere in between (mostly likely scenario) -- then you have to really dig into the numbers between your PV & PG&E's bills to get the "right" answer. But realistically, you just make an educated guess and can then switch plans in 12 months rather than spending (wasting) hours going over totals, graphs and making spreadsheets to analyze it all (like I do). But hey, I don't sleep much.

[CODE]
TIME PERIODS: Times of the year and times of the day are defined as follows:

Summer (service from May 1 through October 31):
Peak: 1:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m. Monday through Friday
Partial-Peak: 10:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m.
AND 7:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. Monday through Friday
Plus 5:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. Saturday and Sunday
Off-Peak: All other times including Holidays.

Winter (service from November 1 through April 30):
Partial-Peak: 5:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. Monday through Friday
Off-Peak: All other times including Holidays.
Holidays:

[vracer]

Thanks guys(?),

This is exactly what I've been looking for. It is always interesting on any performance oriented forum how much attention goes into getting the last 1-2% out of equipment, why Brand X is better than Brand Y. Racers will spend hundreds or even thousands to save a few grams on a part. Yet the cheapest way to save the weight & increase performance is for the driver/rider to go on a diet.

My question didn't come out of thin air; I did spend a fair amount of time searching. Since the vast majority of the PV people are hooked to the grid, it is important maximize the rate we get from our utility for our expensive kW. I think this is a worthy (if not fun) topic. "Make hay while the sun shines" is still an appropriate cliche.

[cebury]

This is exactly what I've been looking for.

PG&E will pay us for the final product.

After reading your 2nd post just under your first (which I didn't see using my nifty mouse scroll-wheel), was this really the info you're looking for?

It sounds like you were trying to maximize the CSI Rebate, which yes is based on panels & shading (you've probably already seen the CSI rebate calculator where you plug-in those values).

[vracer]

Cebury,
Thanks for your input. It is not that the rebate is inconsequential, but it is only a small part of the equation. And the sun keeps shining forever. (Hopefully.)

In our area, PG&E charges $.33/kWh in the higher tiers. (Does anyone know if that is the standard residential rate for PG&E throughout it's area?) With our 3.3 kWh system, I'm trying to keep our net use in the lower tiers.

Also, it is interesting that our bills will probably go down due to increased awarness. In the past I considered utility bills in the same catagory with death and taxes.

[Naptown]

Cebury,
Thanks for your input. It is not that the rebate is inconsequential, but it is only a small part of the equation. And the sun keeps shining forever. (Hopefully.)

In our area, PG&E charges $.33/kWh in the higher tiers. (Does anyone know if that is the standard residential rate for PG&E throughout it's area?) With our 3.3 kWh system, I'm trying to keep our net use in the lower tiers.

Also, it is interesting that our bills will probably go down due to increased awarness. In the past I considered utility bills in the same catagory with death and taxes.

The red is what I refer to as "getting religion" and is a factor in sizing systems. Funny how addicting reducing the electric bill is after investing thousands of dollars in a PV system.

[vinniethePVtech]

Cebury,


In our area, PG&E charges $.33/kWh in the higher tiers. (Does anyone know if that is the standard residential rate for PG&E throughout it's area?) With our 3.3 kWh system, I'm trying to keep our net use in the lower tiers.

If your hitting the tier at .33per kw your burning an excess over 3kwh. A 3.3 kwh solar system will not help you significantly. My friend grows the green goods on a hydro system, that system alone burns up 4.2kwh. Just for the system, usage beyond that system is personal usage that averages 1.8kwh. That's 6kwh total and a monthly bill $680.

I would practice reducing the bills religiously before purchasing solar. If your bills are in the .33 tier that'd PG&E saying shame on you for being an energy hog.

This is just outside of Vallejo.

[Mike90250]

reducing usage = increase in bills

This reminds me of the fiasco that started a couple years ago with the "water shortages" in Los Angeles, as everyone cut back water usage, the water department suddenly had less $ to pay the work crews, which still had to repair pipes. So, they upped the rates till everyone was paying the old amounts, for less water. Why would I expect the electric companies to do anything different ?

[Sunking]

Well Mike for 1 thing electricity use will never decline and demand will continually climb. Not once in the history of energy use have electric demand ever declined. That is why California is in such deep trouble. They quit building base load plants 20 years ago and today you import about 30% of your power vs a very small percentage 20 years ago.

[cebury]

This reminds me of the fiasco that started a couple years ago with the "water shortages" in Los Angeles, as everyone cut back water usage, the water department suddenly had less $ to pay the work crews, which still had to repair pipes. So, they upped the rates till everyone was paying the old amounts, for less water. Why would I expect the electric companies to do anything different ?

I agree Mike. Certainly the same thing with Solar PV installs happening/continuing: just "punish" the PV TOU-tiered rates extra, since a lot was THEIR fault anyway, reducing gross income to the POCO. At least for now, CA utils are allowing offset of dollars, not kwh, in the net-metering policy.


VRacer: Yes, the 5th tier was removed (it was ~.50 kwh) ie set the same rate as the 4th tier, and now the 4th tier is only .34 for everyone in PG&E under E1 residential rates. The billing method is a matrix calculation of Rates & Baseline however, so even though we all pay the same rate, those in higher-cost-to-cool areas (like hot areas of Fresno & Bakersfield) are allotted more daily Kwh for each tier than other cooler areas. Each area, aka baseline territory, gets a daily allotment and you can find info about that here: http://www.pge.com/myhome/customerse...ne/understand/

[Jaxx]

Hello,

I'd like to pick up this thread. I am in the process of installing a 3kW PV system and I am unsure which PG&E rate to chose (E-1 or E-6).

Our usage is low (in the range of 150 kWh/month).

Very low usage during the day on week days. Mostly usage in the evening.
On the weekends usage is slightly higher with more usage during the day and same usage in the evening.

Could you help me understand which rate would work better for us? I am expecting to generate more kWh's than we use. I am not sure how the higher rate for generated electricity during the day with TOU would work for us.

We are currently on E-1. I just saw that PG&Es website currently recommends to go with E-6 (that is without the PV system). Estimated cost per year with E-6 will be $170 vs $200.

Thanks