PV systems pricing dropping in 2023

[davidcheok]

Residential PV has always been exclusionary for the working poor - at least in the U.S. anyway. That's one of the arguments the POCOs use to justify attacks on net metering.

Next time you fly, look out the window on landing approach and see how many solar roofs there are in poorer areas vs. the more affluent suburbs.
Kind of like the giveaway of gauging how relatively affluent countries are by the light pollution they give off.

Probably a useless comment but I wonder what the median net worth of readers and contributors to this forum might be.

This is true. Even here in Brunei. However, i see people owning multiple cars changing them once every few years. I had to take a substantial personal loan to fund my solar and the repayments will eat a substantial amount of income for 4-5 yrs but once that is done, only then it truly becomes an asset. Yes I could have had the repayments over a 10-15 yr period but I would only be paying more interest and im only prolonging the inevitable of having to pay back. Rather get it done and over with ASAP. Many would rather take financing on a luxury car that turns into a piece of scrap after 10 yrs. IMHO there are two ways of looking at solar projects. Either see it as a financial instrument to save money and have an ROI or see it as an extension to your home improvement without an ROI.

[MattSl]

J.P.M., I'm in Florida, and thanks to Desantis for vetoing our state version of California's utility-written bill.

I opted for the Tesla install, bought in June 2021, had it installed in late August, 2022. Tesla spent over 8 months arguing with my power company to get approvals. I have the system operating, but still waiting for PTO from my power company 5 months later. Since I have batteries, I've been running for the entire span. If I didn't have batteries, I'd be upset having a full system just idling on the roof for almost half a year with zero return.

SunEagle, I'm not against paying for experienced installers, I think they deserve higher salaries. I think it is more on the solar companies themselves, setting price based on what they think a household can afford rather than what it will cost for parts and installation. Kind of like getting an estimate on the phone, but it 'magically' increases when they visit your house.

[SunEagle]

J.P.M., I'm in Florida, and thanks to Desantis for vetoing our state version of California's utility-written bill.

I opted for the Tesla install, bought in June 2021, had it installed in late August, 2022. Tesla spent over 8 months arguing with my power company to get approvals. I have the system operating, but still waiting for PTO from my power company 5 months later. Since I have batteries, I've been running for the entire span. If I didn't have batteries, I'd be upset having a full system just idling on the roof for almost half a year with zero return.

SunEagle, I'm not against paying for experienced installers, I think they deserve higher salaries. I think it is more on the solar companies themselves, setting price based on what they think a household can afford rather than what it will cost for parts and installation. Kind of like getting an estimate on the phone, but it 'magically' increases when they visit your house.

That is so right. Solar Installers in Florida seem to want to get as much as they can if the customer is unaware of the true costs and production of an installation

[solarix]

I've had competitors come to me in the past imploring us to raise our prices. Enough of the public is so gullible and doesn't do their due diligence, that many solar companies standard practice is to take advantage of them. Then they come to me and demand we raise our prices (we're still about $2.00-2.25/watt) so they don't look bad. Wholesale PV solar prices are below 50cents/watt. Its unconscionable what some solar companies charge. (and No, we don't cut corners and we just bought a Rivian for the crew)

[MattSl]

I've had competitors come to me in the past imploring us to raise our prices. Enough of the public is so gullible and doesn't do their due diligence, that many solar companies standard practice is to take advantage of them. Then they come to me and demand we raise our prices (we're still about $2.00-2.25/watt) so they don't look bad. Wholesale PV solar prices are below 50cents/watt. Its unconscionable what some solar companies charge. (and No, we don't cut corners and we just bought a Rivian for the crew)

Now that's the kind of company that I would heartily search for, and be happy to do business with. Being honest in your pricing and work will pay off in the end.

[J.P.M.]

I've had competitors come to me in the past imploring us to raise our prices. Enough of the public is so gullible and doesn't do their due diligence, that many solar companies standard practice is to take advantage of them. Then they come to me and demand we raise our prices (we're still about $2.00-2.25/watt) so they don't look bad. Wholesale PV solar prices are below 50cents/watt. Its unconscionable what some solar companies charge. (and No, we don't cut corners and we just bought a Rivian for the crew)

There's probably the ghost of an old Greek philosopher by the name of Diogenes walking around looking for you. You'll recognize him by the lamp he carries.

To the degree that what you write reflects reality, your outfit's success verifies the truth of it. Reminds me of what I used to refer to as tacit price fixing I'd see and here about when I was a commission sales person peddling industrial process equipment. The temptation is a very tough nut to crack mostly because it's so easy to justify and so difficult to prove.

Anecdotally, I suspect you're probably spot on. I've seen what are probably similar goings on to what you write of in my dealings with vendors who install PV systems in my HOA.

IMO only, and as is typical in most consumer areas and dealings, customer's self-inflicted ignorance is their own worst enemy. Not a defense of poor vendors or unethical business practices, but most vendors are only taking advantage of what may look to them like found money.
And, not defending crappy work or business ethics here, but that's before or without talking about the shoddy work that can often result from lack of customer due diligence and attention to what's going on up on their roof both during and after installation.

[nerdralph]

That's crazy. I paid $22k USD for a 18kWp 13kWi APSystems DS3 microinverter no-storage grid-tied system and that includes rewiring the top half of my home with new db and transfer switch. Ordered direct from China and local certified installer installed with relevant approvals. Includes scaffolding to a 2nd storey roof.

I'd guess you bought the PV panels in the US though.

[nerdralph]

It is a downward spiral where people can't get an income to survive and solar installs are becoming something only the rich can afford. We are headed in the wrong direction.

I've actually been thinking of installing PV on some of my rental houses.

[davidcheok]

I'd guess you bought the PV panels in the US though.

No. I sourced a supplier via alibaba.

[nerdralph]

No. I sourced a supplier via alibaba.

Wow, that's a lot of work. Did you have previous experience in the logistics business? I find arranging LCL sea freight & brokerage from Asia to be quite a pain in the ass.

[davidcheok]

Wow, that's a lot of work. Did you have previous experience in the logistics business? I find arranging LCL sea freight & brokerage from Asia to be quite a pain in the ass.

Some. All China needs to do is send the docs and details of shipping and a local forwarding agent can arrange the declaration and extraction plus delivery to door. Alibaba's escrow service is brilliant. Takes a lot of fear out of buying stuff and vendors there do their best to ensure good service because of the ratings. Prices are good because its extremely competitive. Once you have the shipping docs, track the ship using Fleetmon and you know when it arrives at port so your local forwarder can initiate declaration. Pay the tax and fees and wait.
It IS obviously more work than just paying the installer and you will have more work to deal with in case of warranty issues but if you order more than you need as spares, you can swap out any DOA and take your time to do any exchanges at your leisure. This is usually the part which adds the additional costs locally. Installers need to order MOQ and keep stock in hand which adds to customer costs.

[vnatale]

I ran the numbers for a 6kw system and it may save me $1000 per year using an electric rate of $0.12/kwh which is almost 2 cents above what I am spending. So doing the number even at $2/watt installed or $12k (which is way below what I keep getting for quotes) it will take about 12 years to pay for itself which is too long for me

Where do you live to have a rate of $0.12/kwh??!! Here in western MA we are now at $0.362. A 20% increase from July 1, 2022 and an 80% increase from July 1, 2020.

[J.P.M.]

That is so right. Solar Installers in Florida seem to want to get as much as they can if the customer is unaware of the true costs and production of an installation

The cost of not being an informed consumer.
Who's the bad guy, the vendor seeing money laying around waiting to be picked up, or the customer who knows there's a hole in his pocket leaking $$ but is too lazy to fix it ?

[vnatale]

The cost of not being an informed consumer.
Who's the bad guy, the vendor seeing money laying around waiting to be picked up, or the customer who knows there's a hole in his pocket leaking $$ but is too lazy to fix it ?

Is this a well known vendor?

Solar Panel Kits | Shop DIY Solar Kits & Complete Solar Systems (gogreensolar.com)

I contacted them not realizing they strictly service the Do It Yourself market and are not the complete turnkey system.

But would they make a good comp to see what are the cost of the components for a system to compare what the price are from vendors for a similar installed system?

[J.P.M.]

Is this a well known vendor?

Solar Panel Kits | Shop DIY Solar Kits & Complete Solar Systems (gogreensolar.com)

I contacted them not realizing they strictly service the Do It Yourself market and are not the complete turnkey system.

But would they make a good comp to see what are the cost of the components for a system to compare what the price are from vendors for a similar installed system?

It isn't well known to me but that means little.
I'd suggest that if you are not very savvy at DIY (and you don't macho B.S. yourself about it), and you have not installed a PV system or two, to not do it.
I've seen folks who claim to be electricians and also all their own home improvements do barn jobs on systems that building inspector could almost or actually red tag. I tried to talk a (claimed) EE out of a DIY attempt because it was clear that he was way out of his knowledge and ability base.

Still, a lot of DIY systems work out, Not a knock, but from what you've written so far, I sort of doubt a DIY job you'd do would come to an optimum end. But that's only one opinion based on your posts.