Emphase upgrade program

[sdold]

... don't see the need to update my system.

I'm with you, of the 45 or so that my friends and I installed back in 2014 and 2013, none have failed, so I'd leave well enough alone and maybe pick up a spare or two while they are cheap (and still available).

[Ward L]

For what it is worth, I have the Enphase M215 micro inverters installed in 2014. I have not had a failure. I track my output and performance monthly. I don't clean my panels because they are hard to access. This past month I reached the payback point after a little more than 7 years based on what my power bills would have been. It is hard to day how much efficiency my panels have lost since I don't clean them and the weather changes so much. I viewed the Enphase offer as a way for Enphase to sell more new systems. I'm happy with my investment earning over 10% TAX FREE and don't see the need to update my system.

[peakbagger]

My observations are folks with enough panels to cover their total use are rarely obsessed with monitoring once they get to the point where they are running a surplus. Folks that are under-paneled seem to be but more obsessed with monthly and seasonal variations

[J.P.M.]

That's what I was alluding to in my post. OTOH, micros customers tend to be more obsessed about monitoring that's a main reason they picked micros to begin with.

After about 150 PV installs in my HOA - all of which I'm familiar with - my observation is that the only users obsessed with monitoring micro or optimiezer equipped systems after a couple of weeks or so after PTO/startup are the type of folks who show up here. Most users look at their array's output about as often as they look at their electric meter or water heater.

[solardreamer]

It appears, once close monitoring of micro inverters ceases, a panel/micro failure
could go un noticed almost indefinitely.

That's what I was alluding to in my post. OTOH, micros customers tend to be more obsessed about monitoring that's a main reason they picked micros to begin with. If you check Enphase forums, many check panel level output and system power flow animations regularly and ask about reasons why one panel output is different from another and request enhancements like iWatch app for even more monitoring functionality. So, they are probably more likely to discover anything abnormal about their solar systems. Tesla Powerwall customers are similar in many ways.

[J.P.M.]

It appears, once close monitoring of micro inverters ceases, a panel/micro failure
could go un noticed almost indefinitely. Bruce Roe

Along with all the other design negatives micro and optimizer lovers either don't understand or that peddlers don't talk about, that's another backdoor drawback to micros and precisely my point.

[DanS26]

Any accountants out there?..........just read the Enphase 10K.

The company auditors, Deloitte and Touche qualified their opinion with a "Critical Audit Matter". In essence the outside auditors do not agree with Enphase accounting for Warranty reserves. They are warning everyone that future warranty costs could sink the company.

This is a true red flag.

[bcroe]

It appears, once close monitoring of micro inverters ceases, a panel/micro failure
could go un noticed almost indefinitely. With a pair of identical string inverters to
compare here, all it takes is a glance to note a problem. The failures tend to be
in the wiring, taking out an entire string. This big fault is obvious, and a clamp on
ammeter can soon identify the faulty string. From there the fault may be obvious,
or may require a V meter applied to some wires. Bruce Roe

[J.P.M.]

I guess the string vs micro inverter debate will never end but it certainly seems there is not many more failure reports/complaints about Enphase beyond the early models (pre M190) compared to string inverters. I wonder if it's because even when Enphase fails it rarely takes down the whole system.

One advantage that seems near the top of posters' likes here who bought/favor micros is that individual panel output can be monitored - and that's true - but that's often a specious argument.

Here's why: It's been my experience, and also seems to be commonly reported around here, that the novelty watching array output as a new way to play "beat the POCO" (that is, install a residential PV array) seems to lose it's importance after a few weeks or so and complacency sets in about as fast as the novelty of lower electric bills wear off.

After that, I wonder what happens when 1 micro of maybe 15-20 or more in an array craps out, which seems to happen a lot, and/or, the installer goes out of business, which also seems to happen a lot, and/or Enphase does it's seemingly usual poor monitoring job as gets reported around here on a regular basis. Or, the house gets sold and the new owners know squat about what's on their roof much less that it has micros that fail more that anyone might like.

Meanwhile, because the owner has stopped (or more than likely never started) looking at the array's output anymore than they look at their electric meter, the problem goes unnoticed.

Seems to me one additional advantage of a string inverter is that if it does take a dump, it'll affect an electric bill in a very noticeable way and so probably get some attention as soon as the next bill arrives, provided the owners even bother to look at their electric bill when it arrives at the end of each billing period. which seems a dubious and forlorn hope hope.

[bcroe]

I concede, every application should consider if micro inverters or something else
is the most advantageous solution. That said, I am sure there is a huge number
of micro inverters installed because they are no brainers, without any consideration.
Bruce Roe

[solardreamer]

I guess the string vs micro inverter debate will never end but it certainly seems there is not many more failure reports/complaints about Enphase beyond the early models (pre M190) compared to string inverters. I wonder if it's because even when Enphase fails it rarely takes down the whole system.

[J.P.M.]

I think there is value for the early adopters, for these that had a system build with less reliable early models (up to 2012 perhaps?). It seems that from 2013, the models were more reliable.
The advantage of using the upgrade program is all new wiring is provided, along with a new envoy unit and microinverters with a 25 years warranty starting fresh, at a good price, but then as other mentioned, there is the cost to remove and reinstall all the PV and wiring.

The less complicated a system is, the higher the probability it will be more reliable.

PV systems with microinverters are more complicated than PV systems with sting inverters.

If the above two statements are true, PV systems with microinverters will be inherently less reliable than PV systems with microinverters.

On top of that, electronics of the type used in microinverters usually don't like a lot of heat.

Based on the idea that less heat is a good idea, micros sitting on the back of a flat black panel that's facing the sun on an already hot roof seems inconsistent with the goal of keeping micros in a cool environment.

Then, because all those heat sensitive electronics are distributed evenly to all parts of an array, there's the consideration of how to get at a micro in the middle of an array and/or design considerations dealing with how to service panels in the interior of an array..

To at least some extent, and particularly before PV prices dropped (like in 2013), grid tied, net metered PV in shaded areas was often pretty hard to make cost effective making the usually greatest and most touted advantage of micros over string inverters a tough argument to win.

Since not every location can be made cost effective due to shading, and since back in earlier days even shade free locations and applications were marginally cost effective at best, the greatest value for early adopters would have been to see if PV was possibly cost effective given the application's shade potential, and if so, using string inverters and avoid all this B.S. about trying to make a bad application something else by using inappropriate technology.

While perhaps the only available choice among bad choices, the idea that a poor initial system design choice can be corrected by patches and band-aids, is to use specious logic.

[MGE]

I did take the first shot and yeah I was probably wrong in giving my opinion on a public forum, I could of done that in a more friendly manner or not at all. No disrespect intended.

But I like the "someone not in the solar business with experience in only one system" crack really that's ok huh? Mainly did Industrial installs, Co-Gen plants,12kv distribution, Metering, VFD's, Inverters and Rectifier systems, Capacitor banks and power quality analysis for SDG&E. So what do I know.

Been in the trade since the mid 70's and I sold my business in 2012 so yeah your right I probably don't have the right to voice ( or type ) MY experience or opinion.

You could of said MGE your one in a million in your experience in relation to Enphase as their reputation is terrible and they make poor quality devices as stated over and over on this site.
Then I would of said hey your right I did get lucky.
I"m done.

[oliidx]

I think there is value for the early adopters, for these that had a system build with less reliable early models (up to 2012 perhaps?). It seems that from 2013, the models were more reliable.
The advantage of using the upgrade program is all new wiring is provided, along with a new envoy unit and microinverters with a 25 years warranty starting fresh, at a good price, but then as other mentioned, there is the cost to remove and reinstall all the PV and wiring.

[sdold]

All I said was mine was good, "the lucky one" and then some yahoo tells me I'm wrong and they are all gonna have to be replaced them they all fail. We'll see.
Thanks for all the positive support.

You took the first shot with your comment about the moderators, "way to be impartial", etc. There's no reason for Solarix (or any of the other moderators for that matter) to be impartial on any topic here, we are part of the community as well as having volunteered to keep things working smoothly. Solarix is an experienced installer whose opinion I value considerably more than someone not in the solar business with experience in only one system.

Moderators are responsible for keeping users on topic and keep the group or discussion thread free of personal insults and derogatory comments.

In keeping with this, please stay on topic. Thanks.