Service & Main Panel Upgrade Code Requirement - Unreasonable!!!!

[Zero_Balance]

Hi,

I recently signed with a highly recommended installer to have a 6.84 kW, 24 panel system installed on my home (1560sq ft, 3BR) located near Merced, CA.

My home currently has underground 100 amp service to a 100 amp main panel located on a bedroom wall. The installer stated the POCO has a code requirement where if the main panel (combo meter panel) is upgraded then it must be re-located to a non bedroom wall. After my installer submitted their plans to the POCO they stated my service must be upgraded to 125 amp and my main panel will need to be upgraded to 125 amp and relocated to a nearby bath room wall?

The service upgrade by the POCO will require extensive underground boring from the new main panel location, then underneath an HVAC unit out to the street, then underneath the street to the transformer. Cost is estimated between $6000 to $15,000???

The main panel relocation is estimated at a set price for $1500 by the installer's subcontractor electrician. Problem is my home's main wiring will have to replaced with longer romex to accommodate the longer run. Another obstacle is the new relocation area has 2 bathroom windows and an HVAC unit. A contractor friend stated the relocation might require sheetrock work as well.


Is the expensive service upgrade from 100 amps to 125 amps really necessary for a 6.84kW solar system? I read on another thread 100 amp service is fine using the 120% rule up to an 8.8kW as long as 2 slots are available in the main panel for the additional breakers? Obviously the code requirement to relocate the main panel is unreasonable as well but the POCO is stating the main panel must be relocated and removed from the bedroom wall.

I am highly disappointed in my POCO's code requirement of relocation of the main panel away from the bedroom wall. My floor plan was not designed nor friendly for the relocation of my main panel.

To top it all off, a neighbor down the street with the exact same floor plan, service and main panel location was not required to upgrade her service nor relocate her main panel. Her paperwork stated a main panel upgrade was needed to 125 amps but when I checked it is a Eaton 100 amp, 12 slot main panel combo (her meter is the same as mine). She has 21 panels but I have not verified what size they are??

The POCO stated to my installer they will be enforcing the main panel relocation code and service for my solar install.

Why the discriminatory treatment and unreasonable code requirements from my POCO?????

[wayne23836]

If your 100 amp service will handle the 8.8 solar install and your HVAC circuit is is large enough to handle the back feed, you might be able to feed a sub panel (4 circuit 3r from lowes) with the hvac circuit . run the hvac on the sub panel and back feed through the other 2 breakers in the sub panel. You may not have a neutral wire,and not sure if your inverter requires one.

I am not an electrician so be sure to check with your installer electrician. If this meets the requirments let us know, it was told to me by my electrical inspector so I know it is used in some jurisdictions.

[foo1bar]

If your 100 amp service will handle the 8.8 solar install and your HVAC circuit is is large enough to handle the back feed, you might be able to feed a sub panel (4 circuit 3r from lowes) with the hvac circuit . run the hvac on the sub panel and back feed through the other 2 breakers in the sub panel. You may not have a neutral wire,and not sure if your inverter requires one.

I am not an electrician so be sure to check with your installer electrician. If this meets the requirments let us know, it was told to me by my electrical inspector so I know it is used in some jurisdictions.

1> Every (legal) grid-tie inverter in the US requires a neutral. It has to check that the voltage between the neutral and the hot wires are in the proper range (and shut itself down if they're not)
2> I would doubt that using a subpanel will allow the OP to avoid upgrading the main panel.

I think at this point OP is going to have to relocate the main panel (since it will have to go to 125A busbar panel)
He *MAY* be able to get them to leave it as a 100A service and avoid running new wire from the utility to his house (and the digging/boring that goes with that)

My advice would be to upgrade wires so could do 200A service if he does have to replace those wires. Most of the cost will be in the digging - the wires are small part.

If downgrade to a 4.8kW system (or 4800W inverter, even with slightly more panels) it might be possible to leave the panel as-is. (If it's an end-feed panel you possibly can use the 120% rule)

[Zero_Balance]

The problem with re-locating the main panel is the alternative locations are 2 bathroom walls further in from the current location and the house has vaulted ceilings. There is also an HVAC unit & furnace separating the bathrooms from the bedroom where the main panel is located. I'm not sure the building code allows a main panel to be located on a bathroom wall (facing externally)??? An electrician said the shower stall might have to removed if is covering the only clean wall run??

My main panel is currently located just on the other side of the fence in this pic:
WP_20161011_006.jpg

Current main panel breakers:
WP_20161010_010.jpg


The costs to upgrade the underground burial cable service would negate any financial gains and would lengthen the time it will take to recoup costs. It seems so unfair?

I did locate another nearby home with the same floor plan and setup. The installer installed a smaller system (18) panels and replaced the existing main panel with a new 100 amp main panel (Eaton MBE1224PV100BTS).
20161011_164410.jpg

My goal was to have 24 panels (6.84 kW) since I have a rear south facing roof which would have given me maximum sun exposure. But the main panel re-location requirement from my POCO does not seem feasible or reasonable at this point, they do have a reputation for being anti-solar! n thinks the POCO has worries about EMF health issues since most new homes always have the main panel on the garage.

Will wait and see what my installer's electrician says regarding the maximum amount of solar panels on a 100 amp main panel if my POCO will even allow it in its current location.

The CA Solar Rights Act states an unreasonable barrier or obstacle (such as the code requirement a main panel upgrade must re-located away from a bedroom wall) is illegal so I'm wondering if I have some legal recourse there???

[Zero_Balance]

The problem with re-locating the main panel is the alternative locations are 2 bathroom walls further in from the current location and the house has vaulted ceilings. There is also an HVAC unit & furnace separating the bathrooms from the bedroom where the main panel is located. I'm not sure the building code allows a main panel to be located on a bathroom wall (facing externally)??? An electrician said the shower stall might have to removed if is covering the only clean wall run??

My main panel is currently located just on the other side of the fence in this pic:


Current main panel breakers:
WP_20161010_010.jpg

The costs to upgrade the underground burial cable service would negate any financial gains and would lengthen the time it will take to recoup costs. It seems so unfair?

I did locate another nearby home with the same floor plan and setup. The installer installed a smaller system (18) panels and replaced the existing main panel with a new 100 amp main panel (Eaton MBE1224PV100BTS). This system was installed a year ago and the main panel was allowed to remain in its location on the bedroom wall by the POCO.


My goal was to have 24 panels (6.84 kW) since I have a rear south facing roof which would have given me maximum sun exposure. But the main panel re-location requirement from my POCO does not seem feasible or reasonable at this point, they do have a reputation for being anti-solar! Salesman thinks the POCO has worries about EMF health issues since most new homes always have the main panel on the garage.

Will wait and see what my installer's electrician says regarding the maximum amount of solar panels on a 100 amp main panel if my POCO will even allow it in its current location.

The CA Solar Rights Act states an unreasonable barrier or obstacle (such as the code requirement a main panel upgrade must re-located away from a bedroom wall) is illegal so I'm wondering if I have some legal recourse there???

http://ohp.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=25664

"Section 714 of the Civil Code is amended to alter the definition of what is a reasonable restriction on a solar energy system as it pertains to restrictions that would significantly increase the cost of the system or significantly decrease its efficiency or specified performance, or that would not allow for an alternative system of comparable cost, efficiency, and energy conservation benefits.

Specifically, “significantly” means an amount not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000) over the system cost as originally specified and proposed, or a decrease in system efficiency of an amount exceeding 10 percent as originally specified and proposed."

[Mike90250]

Generally, the City Inspector rules on houses, and the power company just feeds them. BUT - maybe the power company is tired of all the solar, and is throwing up obstacles just to frustrate. Going to a smaller PV array that the existing panel can handle may be the only answer, if it can generate enough to cut out the high tier rate category.

[sunnyguy]

Remove the closet from the bedroom so it is not a bedroom?

[cebury]

Out of curiosity, is the POCO Merced Irrigation District?

[Zero_Balance]

Generally, the City Inspector rules on houses, and the power company just feeds them. BUT - maybe the power company is tired of all the solar, and is throwing up obstacles just to frustrate. Going to a smaller PV array that the existing panel can handle may be the only answer, if it can generate enough to cut out the high tier rate category.

Yes, that would be the lowest cost option as well. Between the bathroom windows are (2) bath and shower stalls, I don't think the county inspector will allow a main panel to be relocated to those locations due to possible shock hazards. One small leak in the shower stall is all it would take......... and of course the bathroom windows are blocking the other possible routes/runs.

Out of curiosity, is the POCO Merced Irrigation District?

Nope, its the big POCO. I do have a complaint and am awaiting a response.

[foo1bar]

Yes, that would be the lowest cost option as well. Between the bathroom windows are (2) bath and shower stalls, I don't think the county inspector will allow a main panel to be relocated to those locations due to possible shock hazards. One small leak in the shower stall is all it would take......... and of course the bathroom windows are blocking the other possible routes/runs.
.

It would require a leak in the shower stall AND a way for the water to get into the electrical panel's box. (not to mention through the stucco if it's surface mounted outside)
AND it'd have to create a continuous path from the live wire into the shower. More likely it'd drip somewhere and just cause corrosion in the meter box and in 40 years enough damage to cause a fire.
But I can understand not wanting it near a shower - if nothing else it's a potential concern for resale.

It looks like your current panel may be center feed.
I can't get more than the thumbnails - but I think the main breaker is in the middle with the branch circuits above and below it.
If that's the case, then you can't use the 120% rule on that.

You can see if they will leave the meter/breakers where it is because the only place to relocate it is on the other side of the fence. (Usually they don't want it on the other side of a fence)

[solarix]

A 100 amp panel is well outdated. Its getting rare to find anymore and is affecting the value of your home - if that is important to you. Upgrading to a normal 200A panel will add significant value to your home and I always say people should replace their service every 50 years or so whether they need it or not just for safety reasons. it is definitely going to limit your grid-tied solar system to a 3.3kW inverter and at least if you do the upgrade now, you can claim 30% of the costs as a tax credit. Talk to several solar contractors and find someone experienced in your area with service upgrades. A contractor that is on good terms with the building dept. and friendly with the utility will go a long way toward an amicable solution.

[cebury]

Nope, its the big POCO. I do have a complaint and am awaiting a response.

Wow, didn't realize it but that requirement has been around for years. Here is a 2011 ServiceRequirements specification showing that bedroom walls are not allowed due to noise concerns. That mean noisy "adult activities" would cause interference with the electrical? Jk.

http://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdf...rements/05.pdf

Section 5.3.2. Item a.8

Read that document and it might give you another "out" where that bath wall install could conflict with other requirements.

[Zero_Balance]

A 100 amp panel is well outdated. Its getting rare to find anymore and is affecting the value of your home - if that is important to you. Upgrading to a normal 200A panel will add significant value to your home and I always say people should replace their service every 50 years or so whether they need it or not just for safety reasons. it is definitely going to limit your grid-tied solar system to a 3.3kW inverter and at least if you do the upgrade now, you can claim 30% of the costs as a tax credit. Talk to several solar contractors and find someone experienced in your area with service upgrades. A contractor that is on good terms with the building dept. and friendly with the utility will go a long way toward an amicable solution.

Excellent advice, I will seriously consider upgrading the service if its not too outrageous. I was told the POCO requires a $1500 deposit and then will bill you the remainder of the costs after they have completed the service upgrade. Hopefully they can give me and the contractor an accurate and reasonable estimate?

Wow, didn't realize it but that requirement has been around for years. Here is a 2011 ServiceRequirements specification showing that bedroom walls are not allowed due to noise concerns. That mean noisy "adult activities" would cause interference with the electrical? Jk.

http://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdf...rements/05.pdf

Section 5.3.2. Item a.8

Read that document and it might give you another "out" where that bath wall install could conflict with other requirements.

Yes it might give me an out since re-locating the main panel further back would create a hazard to their personnel by the HVAC unit.

Item A.3 under 5.3.2 prohibits a meter location near "equipment in motion" deemed hazardous.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5.3.2. Prohibited Meter Locations
The following locations are not acceptable for electric meters.
A. Locations deemed hazardous to either personnel or equipment, or
locations found to be unsuitable for entry. These locations include:
1. Inside any residence.
2. Directly over any stairway, ramp, or steps.
3. Any area where personnel may contact either exposed, high-voltage
conductors or equipment in motion.

WP_20161011_005.jpg

Thank you all for the advice and resources!

[foo1bar]

I was told the POCO requires a $1500 deposit and then will bill you the remainder of the costs after they have completed the service upgrade. Hopefully they can give me and the contractor an accurate and reasonable estimate?

The POCO is going to run the wires for the new service?

When I upgraded my service the POCO *only* did the final connection in their vault at the edge of my property.
And they did that for very little or free (Was one lineman for an hour or so)
Placing conduit and wires was up to me and/or my contractor.

Yes it might give me an out since re-locating the main panel further back would create a hazard to their personnel by the HVAC unit.

Item A.3 under 5.3.2 prohibits a meter location near "equipment in motion" deemed hazardous.

I very much doubt they'll consider a normal AC unit to be "equipment in motion" that the personnel might contact.

But you might want to look at 5.3.2 E

[Zero_Balance]

Yes, the service upgrade would require new longer underground wiring since the new upgraded main panel would have to be re-located further away from the transformer by 15-20 ft.

Well more bad news from an upper manager of my solar installer after he contacted the POCO today. The POCO was allowing 100 amp main panels on bedroom walls to be upgraded to 125 amp with a 100 amp main breaker installed and no re-location.. Now the POCO is only allowing "like for like" replacement main panels to remain on bedroom walls and no increase in amperage.

So I am stuck with a 100 amp solar system which won't offset my usage that much (). The home has a gas dryer, range and water heater too, no jacuzzi or pool.

A solar system that weak won't be worth it or cost effective?

Here is my production estimate with a 24 panel system:

System Details:
6.84 kW roof top system
24 American made solar panels
with micro inverters
Includes permitting and installation

Your Monthly Usage Numbers: (kWh)
Production / Usage / Remainder:
Jan: 423 / 611 / 188
Feb: 572 / 546 / -26
Mar: 844 /442 /-402
Apr: 991 / 542 /-449
May: 1096 / 657 /-439
Jun: 1084 / 1085 / 1
Jul: 1112 / 1329 / 217
Aug: 1057 /1489 / 432
Sep: 901 / 1247 / 346
Oct: 793 / 873 / 80
Nov: 562 / 624 /62
Dec: 389 / 584 /195
TOTAL 9,825 10,029 204

Downsizing to the following 12 panel system will cut production in half!

System Details:
3.42 kW roof top system
12 American made solar panels
with micro inverters
Includes permitting and installation

The manager stated my neighbors lucked out before the POCO started enforcing this unreasonable code. So they were allowed to upgrade their service while I am not. Instead of 24 panels I can only have 12 panels which will waste my one time 30% credit allowance?

As Sunnyguy suggested another questionable option would be to close/wall off the closet thus making the bed room into a non bedroom? This would be easy to do. If I changed it back later the POCO would probably shut off my service! Or would this be illegal? Thoughts?

If I'm reading the code right myself and thousands of others with main panels mounted on bedroom walls are already illegal which is ridiculous!