Electrical Panel Upgrade to 125amp for 5Kw install?

[anilr]

I have a quote for a 5Kw solar install which i'm happy with. My 100amp panel in the house is full though, so the installer recommended upgrading to a 125w panel (he also recommended the upgrade since the panel was old and a possible fire hazard). The house panel is fed by the main panel outside, which appears to have a 90amp breaker on it.

He quoted $2600 for upgrading the panel. This seems to be on the high side, but I've been too busy with solar research to pay any attention to service panel research. My understanding is that since this needs to be done for the solar project, its eligible for the 30% tax credit so perhaps the price is acceptable.

What I'm more curious about though, is that he suggests upgrading to a 125amp instead of a 200amp, saying the later would be much more complicated. Looking at the threads it seems that 200amps is more common, and would be useful in the future (electric car 10 years from now?). If I understood him correctly, the PG&E wire is only 100amps.

Does this make sense, or should I consider a 200amp upgrade (or just tap the line directly, and replace the fire-hazard box with a 100a box)? If anyone has suggestions, recommendations I'd love to hear them.

Thanks!
Anil
in Walnut Creek, CA

[inetdog]

PG&E would be the determining factor in the upgrade.
Some POCOs insist that the service wiring be rated (by their standard anyway) for the nominal size of the panel, regardless of the size of the main breaker or the calculated load.
If the service wiring needs to be replaced with larger, some or all of that cost will be on you.

Panel replacement for on the order of $2000 is not unusual, but varies by location. You can ask an independent electrical contractor for an estimate if you would like a reference point.

Some 100A panels already have a 125A bus in them, so the upgrade to 125 may not actually change anything except the amount of free space.

If the existing panel is Federal Pacific or Zinsco, some of their models (over a large span of years) are known to have problems (involving both the bus and the breakers) and replacement breakers are very expensive. So that would be another argument that it is a good time to upgrade.

Who is the manufacturer of the existing panel and about when was it installed?
Is it center feed or top feed? (where is the main breaker located)

If the main panel outside has room in it, no connection to the house panel would be necessary, so keep that in mind too.

[solar_newbie]

I am not sure if you have 1 or 2 breakers from the meter. Mine has 2 breakers. One is 100 amp to the house panel and one is 40 amp to the AC. Installers suggest to install a sub-panel and move the 40 amps breaker to it. I guess it is much cheaper option for cost since there is no impact to the house.

[foo1bar]

I have a quote for a 5Kw solar install which i'm happy with. My 100amp panel in the house is full though, so the installer recommended upgrading to a 125w panel (he also recommended the upgrade since the panel was old and a possible fire hazard). The house panel is fed by the main panel outside, which appears to have a 90amp breaker on it.

He quoted $2600 for upgrading the panel. This seems to be on the high side,
...
in Walnut Creek, CA

$2600 for a panel replacement in Walnut creek?
No - probably not on the high side.
You can see what another electrician will charge you - my guess would be somewhere between $2k and $3k.
The panel and the breakers aren't that much. BUT it takes a fair amount of labor. The electrician will have to disconnect every circuit in there (and you said it's full)
So that's 30 different breakers to remove? And all the ground and common wires.
Then remove the old panel from the wall, taking care not to damage any of the wires as he pulls them out of the panel.
Then put all the wires into the new panel, connect all those breakers back again. (and the wires that feed the panel)

That's probably all of a day, maybe more. which means $2600 in bay area isn't unreasonable.

If it's a zinsco or Federal Pacific panel - I'd change out the panel. (I just removed my FPE panels)

If it's not - I'd look at what your options are - can the wires for solar go to the main panel? (may or may not be an easy thing depending on how you'd have to run the wires to get there - ex. tearing down a bunch of drywall may not be a good choice compartively)

Changing your subpanel (the one inside fed from your main panel outside) to 200A vs. 125A is likely to make no difference - either way it's fed by the 90A at the main panel. Using a 200A panel just means that it'll be a little more expensive than a 125A. Either way you are still restricted to 90A because that's the breaker at the main panel AND very likely is the capacity of the cable from the main panel to your subpanel.
Changing to a panel with a thicker bus (which can support 200A) doesn't really help you in being more ready for an EV. (you're still limited to 90A - and even with an EV you're likely to be well under that. )


Good luck.

[foo1bar]

PG&E would be the determining factor in the upgrade.

I dont' think they do for a subpanel.
And the OP is asking about upgrading the subpanel

If it's an upgrade of the main panel as well, then maybe PG&E could say something about the incoming lines being large enough to match the bus for a main panel (even if the main breaker is appropriately downsized to match the wires) I know there have been posts on here about one of the southern CA POCOs having such a rule.
But I think PG&E is more sensible in that regard.
If OP does upgrade the main panel, I would definitely make sure the plans for that are cleared ahead of time with PG&E.
And in general for the solar install, I think you want to make sure the POCO signs off on the plans - so probably no matter what the OP (or actually his contractor) needs to make sure PG&E is OK with everything.

[inetdog]

I dont' think they do for a subpanel.
And the OP is asking about upgrading the subpanel

If it's an upgrade of the main panel as well, then maybe PG&E could say something about the incoming lines being large enough to match the bus for a main panel (even if the main breaker is appropriately downsized to match the wires) I know there have been posts on here about one of the southern CA POCOs having such a rule.
But I think PG&E is more sensible in that regard.
If OP does upgrade the main panel, I would definitely make sure the plans for that are cleared ahead of time with PG&E.
And in general for the solar install, I think you want to make sure the POCO signs off on the plans - so probably no matter what the OP (or actually his contractor) needs to make sure PG&E is OK with everything.

There is a very good chance, if the OP's system is large, that the 120% rule will be violated at the main panel, whatever he does at the subpanel. Although a 90A breaker on a 100A service might give him enough room there.
POCO will still want to look at the whole system and who knows what their response will be. They are NOT required to accept a setup just because it complies with the NEC.

[emartin00]

If you are going to upgrade the panel, I would go to a 200A service. If you only have a 90A breaker outside, then you really aren't upgrading anything. You will need to utility to run a new wire to your house.
In my area, the utility will do the upgrade at no cost, because it usually means that you will be using more power. You're still on the hook for the panel upgrade though. I would suggest talking to a local electrician and get their input.

[foo1bar]

In my area, the utility will do the upgrade at no cost, because it usually means that you will be using more power. You're still on the hook for the panel upgrade though.

Upgrading the service at no cost?
Let me guess - Overhead service, right?
I found out the hard way that I am responsible to pay for the underground wires and conduit (and installation) from the small pit/utility box at the edge of my property to the meter at my house. When I called before upgrading my service I asked about the service - and unfortunately we were miscommunicating - because they told me that "Yes, your wires are big enough. You are fine for up to 400A" But what they were referring to was the wires going to the edge of my property, not the ones going to my meter.

[emartin00]

Upgrading the service at no cost?
Let me guess - Overhead service, right?
I found out the hard way that I am responsible to pay for the underground wires and conduit (and installation) from the small pit/utility box at the edge of my property to the meter at my house. When I called before upgrading my service I asked about the service - and unfortunately we were miscommunicating - because they told me that "Yes, your wires are big enough. You are fine for up to 400A" But what they were referring to was the wires going to the edge of my property, not the ones going to my meter.

Yes, most residential service around here is all overhead. Some of the newer neighborhoods are underground, but those were all built with 200A service anyway.
If they used conduit, and it is large enough, they may be able to just replace the wires without having to dig it up. Not sure what that would cost though.

[anilr]

Thanks everyone for your comments.

Yes, the subpanel I have is a Zinsco so it should be replaced regardless. It sounds like upgrading to a 200 amp service, if it isn't needed right now, doesn't make sense since it would require a new underground line from PG&E (i think).

So perhaps sticking with a new 125 amp sub-panel, but making sure PG&E agrees to the setup before installation.

Is there any reason why I shouldn't put in a 200amp sub-panel, even though the main breaker is 90amps? Wouldn't that be a cheap future-proofing (I'm assuming the cost between a 125 panel and a 200 panel is minimal). Or does that break the code?

[foo1bar]

Is there any reason why I shouldn't put in a 200amp sub-panel, even though the main breaker is 90amps? Wouldn't that be a cheap future-proofing (I'm assuming the cost between a 125 panel and a 200 panel is minimal). Or does that break the code?

It's not going to help much for "future-proofing".
The wires from the main to the sub aren't being upgraded.
Therefore you can't put more than 90A through them.
I'd make sure there's sufficient breaker space in the new panel for future circuits. That would be good inexpensive future-proofing.

If you really think you will want to have more than 90A going to the subpanel, then you should upgrade the wire from the main to the sub at the same time as upgrading the panel to 200A.

Also - I'd check your main panel - if that's zinsco, then you may want to replace it too.

[foo1bar]

It sounds like upgrading to a 200 amp service, if it isn't needed right now, doesn't make sense since it would require a new underground line from PG&E (i think).

[/QUOTE]

IMO find out what you have - if it's easy/cheap to upgrade, go for it.
Whether it's cheap/easy will depend on how big the conduit is and what wire size is there already.
Probably the conduit and wires are just the minimum size needed for 100A or 125A service (whatever it is you have now)
And probably you'll need to replace both conduit and wires.
But maybe you're luckier than me.
And you can check wtih PG&E to see what they say - maybe they'll replace those wires for you. (I doubt it - but I only have had experience with 1 POCO with underground service - before that I dealt with overhead and then the POCO would replace the lines up to the weatherhead.)

[solar_newbie]

Couple installers I talk to told me that they install a new sub-panel for FREE. They also install the EV car charger for free. The material cost is very small 100-200 for them. What is the point to pay $2500 for sub-panel when you already pay a lot of solar .

[foo1bar]

Couple installers I talk to told me that they install a new sub-panel for FREE. They also install the EV car charger for free. The material cost is very small 100-200 for them. What is the point to pay $2500 for sub-panel when you already pay a lot of solar .

Installing EV charger is pretty easy and won't take much time.
A new sub panel is a lot easier than replacing an existing one.
So both of those are significantly less labor.

But I think the thing to ponder is whether they really are "FREE".
Or is it more that they just make sure they have more than enough profit on each job so that they can do these additional items?

I'd bet on the latter - they have enough profit built in to their pricing that wiring an EV charger ($50-$100 in material? $400 in labor?) is something that doesn't affect their bottom line that much - and gives them something to use for marketting themselves.

[solar_newbie]

I would say "yes" on your answer. Both jobs cost less labor then re-do the current panel.
Then, why to replace the current sub-panel? Just install a new sub-panel... You have plenty places to put a new equipment in. Is it better to keep things separate as there is no problem for the current panel? Separate the house from other new things.