Im a newbie and i need help with planning my system

[Sunking]

Man, people just give up on the younger generation.... I just want the ability to switch over to battery's when I am finished with the rest the system, if I need to.

Tyler the reason you are catching so much flack is you are not listening and refuse to apply simple logic and economics. There is no reason to ever switch to batteries. Here is what we see in you doing.

Imagine two gas stations side by side on a corner and you need gasoline. One station sells gas for $3/gal, and the other sells it for $30/gal with a 1 gallon limit. All of giving you flack go to the station for $3/gal for all we want, and you are the only one who pays $30/gal 1 gallon at a time. Wake up dude and listen.

Any power that comes from batteries is going to cost you many times more than buying it from the power company. To supply you with 1 Kwh/day (10-cents worth of electricity) battery cost are roughly $1200 for each Kwh. That battery on average if you treat it with TLC will last about 5 years until it needs replaced again at higher cost. In the 5 years that ! Kwh/day battery delivers 1865 Kwh. Just in battery cost alone works out to $1200 / 1865 Kwh = $0.64/Kwh. You can buy that same Kwh from the power company for 10 to 15 cents with no limit.

However you only want to use the batteries once in a while whenever you think it is convenient. Regardless if you use the batteries are not, they still need replaced in this case in 5 to 7 years. Let's say in 6 years you use it 100 times. Your Kwh cost now are roughly $1200 / 100 Kwh = $12/Kwh.

So quit being that fool who pays $30/gal. Listen to us old fools who have been there and already made the stupid mistakes.

[shadowaxe356]

Tyler the reason you are catching so much flack is you are not listening and refuse to apply simple logic and economics. There is no reason to ever switch to batteries. Here is what we see in you doing.

Imagine two gas stations side by side on a corner and you need gasoline. One station sells gas for $3/gal, and the other sells it for $30/gal with a 1 gallon limit. All of giving you flack go to the station for $3/gal for all we want, and you are the only one who pays $30/gal 1 gallon at a time. Wake up dude and listen.

Any power that comes from batteries is going to cost you many times more than buying it from the power company. To supply you with 1 Kwh/day (10-cents worth of electricity) battery cost are roughly $1200 for each Kwh. That battery on average if you treat it with TLC will last about 5 years until it needs replaced again at higher cost. In the 5 years that ! Kwh/day battery delivers 1865 Kwh. Just in battery cost alone works out to $1200 / 1865 Kwh = $0.64/Kwh. You can buy that same Kwh from the power company for 10 to 15 cents with no limit.

However you only want to use the batteries once in a while whenever you think it is convenient. Regardless if you use the batteries are not, they still need replaced in this case in 5 to 7 years. Let's say in 6 years you use it 100 times. Your Kwh cost now are roughly $1200 / 100 Kwh = $12/Kwh.

So quit being that fool who pays $30/gal. Listen to us old fools who have been there and already made the stupid mistakes.

Its not that i'm not listening, i don't understand all the concepts going into this project which is why i asked for ever ones help. I appreciate you being considerate but half these people are not explaining things thorough enough for me. So if not battery's then a generator? Would i just run off the generators power when the lights go out and use no solar due to it being connected to the grid and the grid being down? I may sound paranoid but the main reason i want this system is so that im not controlled by the energy company's in the future. The property is in the family i will be getting the property because i'm renting to own and almost have it payed off.

[Living Large]

Its not that i'm not listening, i don't understand all the concepts going into this project which is why i asked for ever ones help. I appreciate you being considerate but half these people are not explaining things thorough enough for me. So if not battery's then a generator? Would i just run off the generators power when the lights go out and use no solar due to it being connected to the grid and the grid being down? I may sound paranoid but the main reason i want this system is so that im not controlled by the energy company's in the future. The property is in the family i will be getting the property because i'm renting to own and almost have it payed off.

The first thing I found when I started looking at installing a solar system was an article from 2008 in the NY Times, done by a reporter who was experimenting with a small system for a cabin his family lived in for the summer. The reporter complained "solar power isn't ready for prime time" or something like that. But in his data, it was evident his family of 5, with three kids taking baths, was using 2.7kWh per day for the water pump alone. By far it was the largest consuming item. People who commented on the story observed that they needed to find a way to reduce usage, and the water use was the prime candidate - and if so the author may have come to another conclusion. It is obvious that more use per day = more $$$ cost in the system. What others are pointing out, is that with solar power being so expensive relative to the grid, it makes sense to be as efficient as possible with your use.

My first steps were to understand my consumption, and reduce it where possible, before designing a system. To hear that people are just going to use power like it is going out of style, regardless of where it comes from - I think that is scaring people here. First of all, it means the cost went from expensive to even more expensive. A solar system needs to be monitored - are these "the well will never run dry" users going to have any interest in/respect for the system? From your description, it reminds me of my teen-aged brother who insisted on half-hour showers, which drove my parents crazy due to using so much hot water - in the old days of high flow heads.

[shadowaxe356]

The first thing I found when I started looking at installing a solar system was an article from 2008 in the NY Times, done by a reporter who was experimenting with a small system for a cabin his family lived in for the summer. The reporter complained "solar power isn't ready for prime time" or something like that. But in his data, it was evident his family of 5, with three kids taking baths, was using 2.7kWh per day for the water pump alone. By far it was the largest consuming item. People who commented on the story observed that they needed to find a way to reduce usage, and the water use was the prime candidate - and if so the author may have come to another conclusion. It is obvious that more use per day = more $$$ cost in the system. What others are pointing out, is that with solar power being so expensive relative to the grid, it makes sense to be as efficient as possible with your use.

My first steps were to understand my consumption, and reduce it where possible, before designing a system. To hear that people are just going to use power like it is going out of style, regardless of where it comes from - I think that is scaring people here. First of all, it means the cost went from expensive to even more expensive. A solar system needs to be monitored - are these "the well will never run dry" users going to have any interest in/respect for the system? From your description, it reminds me of my teen-aged brother who insisted on half-hour showers, which drove my parents crazy due to using so much hot water - in the old days of high flow heads.

I have tried to save power by limiting usage, running laundry at night, sealing the windows, switching bulbs over, more efficient water heater, washer and dryer. I still need the fridge and water pump for that but with the family's here running about 1kwh per tv/xbox set up x 3 rooms. Which get ran about 8 hours each a day because we all work different shifts. This is a large portion of the consumption but like I have mentioned when they move out I will probably be using the rest the house for my business which will take the same amount of power or more to run. The xbox and tvs alone put me at about 1000kwh a month. Not including the normally appliances that have to be plugged in 24/7 They will not reduce the amount of power they use and I cannot kick them out, the lease we have is a bit odd due to it dealing with my family and the owner of the house a family member. So if I need a system that generates 30kwh what's the best way of doing this, a grid tie with a genny?

[Sunking]

So if not battery's then a generator? Would i just run off the generators power when the lights go out and use no solar due to it being connected to the grid and the grid being down?

Exactly a grid tied system with Emergency Generator if you demand to have power during outages.

Lets say you use the average 30 Kwh per day. In reality you use a lot more than that. Let's say you live in a decent location with good solar like Kansas City and pay 12-cents per Kwh. Your monthly bill is around $110/month. You say hell with th ePower Company they are screwing me over and you want to go off grid on a battery system. Here is what it will take and estimated cost in equipment only. No Spill containment (expensive and required) labor, material, permits, fees, or yearly inspections by th eFD which is required for more than 500 pound of batteries. Equipment only OK?

Panel Wattage = 15000 watts = $17,000
MPPT Charge Controllers 3 required @ $600 each $1800
48 volt Battery = 3125 AH, 9000 pounds, $33,000 initially and needs replaced about every 5 years.
15 KW Hybrid Inverter with built in Generator support and 100 amp battery charger = $15,000
20 Kw generator = $6000
550 gallon LPG tank = $1500

Total equipment cost = $74,300. You can add another 25 to 30K for all the rest not mentioned. In the first 5 years, not including generator fuel cost the system will deliver you 30 Kw x 1825 days = 54,750 Kwh. Just in equipment cost your first 5 year Kwh cost is $74,300 / 54,750 Kwh = $1.36 per Kwh. Your mean ole greedy power company only charges you 12 cents for all you want all day and night long. Then in 5 years you get to replace the batteries at even higher cost. It will cost you a few thousand in disposal fees and a good $4000 in labor cost on top of another $33,000 for the batteries. You second 5 years drop to 65-cents per Kwh of 5 times more than the greedy ole power company.

Want to sign up for that deal?

Or you could install a Grid tied system and in about 10 years will pay for itself. You initial cost minus the generator is around $3.00 per installed watt. FOR GTI you only need a 9000 watt solar panel system or a $27,000 initial investment that requires no daily work on your part monitoring battery health, weekly watering, and accounting for every light left on in the house. Want power during outages? No problem add a generator of around $10 to $12K installed. Only battery you will replace is the battery for the generator very 5 years for about $100.

So which way do you want to go? A system that provides all the power you want for 1/3 the cost that will pay for itself someday. Or do you want a money pit that cost 3 times more initially, will never pay for itself, bankrupt you, limited power, and comes with a new part time job and yearly visit from the FD and EPA red tape.

If you want the battery route call me. I design the systems and will easily make $15,000 off you. Just send me a good faith check for $50K and I will get the ball rolling. If not me I know Amy will gladly take your biz.

[shadowaxe356]

Exactly a grid tied system with Emergency Generator if you demand to have power during outages.

Lets say you use the average 30 Kwh per day. In reality you use a lot more than that. Let's say you live in a decent location with good solar like Kansas City and pay 12-cents per Kwh. Your monthly bill is around $110/month. You say hell with th ePower Company they are screwing me over and you want to go off grid on a battery system. Here is what it will take and estimated cost in equipment only. No Spill containment (expensive and required) labor, material, permits, fees, or yearly inspections by th eFD which is required for more than 500 pound of batteries. Equipment only OK?

Panel Wattage = 15000 watts = $17,000
MPPT Charge Controllers 3 required @ $600 each $1800
48 volt Battery = 3125 AH, 9000 pounds, $33,000 initially and needs replaced about every 5 years.
15 KW Hybrid Inverter with built in Generator support and 100 amp battery charger = $15,000
20 Kw generator = $6000
550 gallon LPG tank = $1500

Total equipment cost = $74,300. You can add another 25 to 30K for all the rest not mentioned. In the first 5 years, not including generator fuel cost the system will deliver you 30 Kw x 1825 days = 54,750 Kwh. Just in equipment cost your first 5 year Kwh cost is $74,300 / 54,750 Kwh = $1.36 per Kwh. Your mean ole greedy power company only charges you 12 cents for all you want all day and night long. Then in 5 years you get to replace the batteries at even higher cost. It will cost you a few thousand in disposal fees and a good $4000 in labor cost on top of another $33,000 for the batteries. You second 5 years drop to 65-cents per Kwh of 5 times more than the greedy ole power company.

Want to sign up for that deal?

Or you could install a Grid tied system and in about 10 years will pay for itself. You initial cost minus the generator is around $3.00 per installed watt. FOR GTI you only need a 9000 watt solar panel system or a $27,000 initial investment that requires no daily work on your part monitoring battery health, weekly watering, and accounting for every light left on in the house. Want power during outages? No problem add a generator of around $10 to $12K installed. Only battery you will replace is the battery for the generator very 5 years for about $100.

So which way do you want to go? A system that provides all the power you want for 1/3 the cost that will pay for itself someday. Or do you want a money pit that cost 3 times more initially, will never pay for itself, bankrupt you, limited power, and comes with a new part time job and yearly visit from the FD and EPA red tape.

If you want the battery route call me. I design the systems and will easily make $15,000 off you. Just send me a good faith check for $50K and I will get the ball rolling. If not me I know Amy will gladly take your biz.

Thank you for the break down, with what a few people have told me I will most likely go with the generator tie in. I would still want to produce 3,000kwh a month/100,000wh a day/ 25,000wh. Any sites I should look into for my panels other than the http://sunelec.com/ website? They had 435w panels for 38 cents a watt. making my array cost about 10k without wires or anything else. For the generator, do you need a tank that big or its just better to buy a bigger tank? When purchasing the inverter would I have to make sure that its generator compatible? Would I need anything additional to add the generator if I already have a inverter that's compatible?

[sensij]

Any sites I should look into for my panels other than the http://sunelec.com/ website? They had 435w panels for 38 cents a watt. making my array cost about 10k without wires or anything else.

Are you talking about these? Every time people start to take you seriously, you post something like this. It is your money, do what you like, but I've found that if I'm not prepared to spend the money necessary to do a job right, it is better not to spend it at all.

[Sunking]

I would still want to produce 3,000kwh a month/100,000wh a day/ 25,000wh.

Huh?

[Living Large]

"I would still want to produce 3,000kwh a month/100,000wh a day/ 25,000wh."

Huh?

If I am not mistaken he figured his daily use is about 100kWh, and he was going for 3 or 4 hours of sun, so he figured he would need about 100/4 = 25kW of PV power. I think that is where those numbers came from originally.

[shadowaxe356]

Are you talking about these? Every time people start to take you seriously, you post something like this. It is your money, do what you like, but I've found that if I'm not prepared to spend the money necessary to do a job right, it is better not to spend it at all.

People don't have to take me seriously, im asking questions to see what would be better, I know little on this subject. If these panels (or site) is junk then where would be a better place to look? I made this thread so that I would be prepared when I have the money because I do not know much about solar syatems, where to buy or whats the best for me, before 5 posts ago I didn't know I could do a generator system, or what I would need.

[shadowaxe356]

Huh?

My monthly bill is 3,000kwh. If I was to divide that by 30 days it would be 100kwh a day needed. Ohio gets 4 hours of sun a day so I divide 100kw by 4hours making 25kw an hour. so my array will be about 25kw. If that's correct math.... I was also told that my panels might have a higher output on certain days so I should get a inverter with about 25% more so I don't burn it out?

[shadowaxe356]

If I am not mistaken he figured his daily use is about 100kWh, and he was going for 3 or 4 hours of sun, so he figured he would need about 100/4 = 25kW of PV power. I think that is where those numbers came from originally.

yes, sorry for the confusion.

[SunEagle]

My monthly bill is 3,000kwh. If I was to divide that by 30 days it would be 100kwh a day needed. Ohio gets 4 hours of sun a day so I divide 100kw by 4hours making 25kw an hour. so my array will be about 25kw. If that's correct math.... I was also told that my panels might have a higher output on certain days so I should get a inverter with about 25% more so I don't burn it out?

Based on panel efficiencies and true sunlight hours a 25kw system may not be enough to meet a 100kWh daily use.

Trying to build a system that covers 100% of your usage tends to get real expensive, especially to get the last 15%. So maybe looking at something that handles 75 to 80% may be more realistic in both size, cost and payback.

[shadowaxe356]

Based on panel efficiencies and true sunlight hours a 25kw system may not be enough to meet a 100kWh daily use.

Trying to build a system that covers 100% of your usage tends to get real expensive, especially to get the last 15%. So maybe looking at something that handles 75 to 80% may be more realistic in both size, cost and payback.

What would be the cost difference in the system be if I did 80%? The 3000kw a month is December bills. I would really like to go 100% or like 99.9%. I essentially do not want to give any money to the power company's, I mean a few $ in December or when the panels are acting up sure but if I can I want 100%. If the cost diffence in a 20KW system and 30KW is only like 10k then ill take the 100%. I may sound dumb but 100% is my goal. I have been looking on Alibabi.com and found a few grid tie systems with no generator ranging from $12k - $45k for 30kw systems. When looking at panels how do I know they will be worth it? I have seen many "name brands" on sale but a few off brands with better numbers for cheaper, and I cant really trust a salesman in this day and age so I as the people for answers?

[Living Large]

What would be the cost difference in the system be if I did 80%? The 3000kw a month is December bills. I would really like to go 100% or like 99.9%. I essentially do not want to give any money to the power company's, I mean a few $ in December or when the panels are acting up sure but if I can I want 100%. If the cost diffence in a 20KW system and 30KW is only like 10k then ill take the 100%. I may sound dumb but 100% is my goal. I have been looking on Alibabi.com and found a few grid tie systems with no generator ranging from $12k - $45k for 30kw systems. When looking at panels how do I know they will be worth it? I have seen many "name brands" on sale but a few off brands with better numbers for cheaper, and I cant really trust a salesman in this day and age so I as the people for answers?

The way you normally plan for 100% is to plan for sufficient power on Dec 20. For Cleveland, the year round average is 4.0 hours of sun. But in winter, the average is 2.7 hours. So right there, you would be at about 100/2.7 ~= 37kW of PV. And that is the average for all of winter. As Sunking said, you may be on the "light" side at 25kW, so to speak. If your efficiency is 90% (I don't know what is typical), you may need more like 40kW of PV.