Hello all! Lots of questions, feeling duped...

[Mrod500]

Hi all,

Yup, newbie here. Glad I found this forum. Hoping someone can help...

We've had solar since 2013 (leased) and every year our True-Up with PG&E has been over $1,000 and this year it's inching closer to $2,000. When I tell people, they cringe and say that theirs is nowhere near that number. I've called PG&E and they explained to me how everything works and that the True Up is the difference of what our panels produce and what PG&E has to cover. It appears, doing more and more research and talking to PG&E, that my system will produce up to 5,000kwh but I'm using on average 810kwh per month. That has increased 2020 because of working from home. No new electric cars, pool, anything. In fact, we've gotten new appliances that are more efficient. When I call the Solar company, they say my system is working at "optimal performance" and that may be but perhaps they capped my system off too low? That is what I'm trying to figure out. Yes, I didn't do this when we signed up and all I can claim is that they were fast talking and got us to sign on the dotted line...

Are there independent companies out there who can evaluate our usage comparted to our solar output and tell us if we are over/under producing? Is there any recourse with the solar company?

Thank you so much...

Mike

[scrambler]

First, when you bough your system, the installer should have asked you how much yearly energy you wanted to offset with it. If you still have their offer and numbers, you can check what you signed up for and compare that to what you are currently producing. Don't just take their word for it

To know what you area actually producing, and what you are consuming, you need a monitoring system.
Does your installation include one?
Des it show what the system produces daily, monthly yearly?
Des it monitor your whole house consumption?

To know what you SHOULD be producing, there is a website called PVWatts Calculator (nrel.gov) that you can use to evaluate what your system should be able to produce.
You will need the total kW of your array (like 10 x 300W panels is 3kW of panels)
The orientation of the panels (South SE, SW...)
The tilt of the panel (roof slant if on roof, tilt if ground mounted...)

By inputting your location and these number in the site, it will estimate your yearly production.

Now that does not account for any shade. if you have shades on your panels, then the estimation becomes a lot more complicated.

And if you have shade caused by natural elements like trees, it is possible that the shade is getting worse as the tree get taller....

[Ampster]

..........

Are there independent companies out there who can evaluate our usage comparted to our solar output and tell us if we are over/under producing?

PGE offers energy audits and they have a rate simulation tool on their website that might tell you if you could be on a different rate.
Do you know what size your system is? It would be on your lease document and the monthly production from your system should be on your bills. That is how your payments are figured. Your consumption of 810kWh per month is a lot unless you have an EV or two.

Is there any recourse with the solar company?
......

Recourse for what? Read the contract and tell us what part of their agreement that they are not fulfilling? Did they guarantee output? Is it below that?
I am not defending the unscrupulous tactics salesmen have used to get people into solar leases. However I am sure, since it was required, they did give you a 3 day right to recession. If there was misrepresentation then you might be entitled to a remedy. However be sure the reason for your increased bills are not your increased consumption or rate increases by PGE.

[Mrod500]

"PGE offers energy audits and they have a rate simulation tool on their website that might tell you if you could be on a different rate."

Okay, thanks, I'll check it out. If I'm reading it correctly, my system capped out at 5,000 kWh in 2020. PG&E, believe it or not, were totally helpful. They wouldn't tell me one way or the other but hinted that we're using much more energy than what our system produces and gave me numbers of past years. I know 2020 is an anomaly because lots of people working from home.

"Recourse for what? Read the contract and tell us what part of their agreement that they are not fulfilling? Did they guarantee output? Is it below that?
I am not defending the unscrupulous tactics salesmen have used to get people into solar leases. However I am sure, since it was required, they did give you a 3 day right to recession. If there was misrepresentation then you might be entitled to a remedy. However be sure the reason for your increased bills are not your increased consumption or rate increases by PGE."

Of course. They gave us the offer and we signed it. I get that. We don't have EV cars and haven't added anything incremental. In fact, we've replaced appliances that are MORE energy efficient as well as smart thermostats. Something's not right. I feel that the unit we leased from them isn't producing enough to meet our needs. Of course, with the lease, back in 2013, I know they're only going to install barely enough to meet minimum. For example, why wouldn't they put on a larger unit to produce more kWh? I feel like if I were to buy it, I would make sure I've got enough to cover my entire energy usage. My apologies, as we've had the system since 2013, I'm still learning about everyday.

[Ampster]

Something is definitely not right. There are only two parts to the equation, production and consumptiin. The only way to know what is not right is to look at the data. My guess is your system size is about 4kW. Can you confirm that? It should be on your lease or in the Permission To Operate you received from PGE. That will confirm your production and give you a clue if there is something wrong. Otherwise there is not much you can do about that number. It is what you signed up for.

The only thing you have control over is your consumption. Looking at that data will be a good place to start. It is clear the system does not meet your needs. Why you did not ask for a bigger system or why the salesperson did not recommend a bigger system is ancient history by now. The only lesson from visiting history is that a lease is a bad financial decision.

4kW is what size system I had for an all electric home with two EVs. It did not cover all my consumption but it was all I could fit on my roof. Fortunately i was able to get my bills to zero by managing consumption. That is the only help I can offer and if I were in your shoes i would start by asking PGE for an energy specialist to review your consumption. I would post a link but links get my posts thrown into the spam hopper. Just Google "PGE energy audit".

[Ampster]

There is also a concurrent thread about a Sunpower lease. It reminded me that some of these leases offer an option to purchase or prepay. You may wish to review yours and explore your options. If you have a low cost of funds there may be a way to make a poor financial arrangement less of a burden. It wont improve production or reduce consumption but it is something to consider.

[Mrod500]

"Something is definitely not right. There are only two parts to the equation, production and consumptiin. The only way to know what is not right is to look at the data. My guess is your system size is about 4kW. Can you confirm that? It should be on your lease or in the Permission To Operate you received from PGE. That will confirm your production and give you a clue if there is something wrong. Otherwise there is not much you can do about that number. It is what you signed up for."

So last year my system produced 4,767 kWh. I just got off the phone with SunRun after going back and forth. At the time, in 2013, they were outsourcing everything. We were hit up by a company called Gen110 who sold for them. My wife and I were clueless as to solar but had heard from so many that it would help us save and also be better for the environment. Well, interestingly enough, come to find out just now, my system was designed to only offset 44% of our usage which, at the time was 9,724 in 2013. This last year (2020) we were at 12,795 and I expected it to be more because of Covid and working at home. However the rep from SunRun read me the wrong contract at first and that contract was designed to offset 71% of that person's usage. He apologized profusely for reading me the wrong contract but I was able to finally get him to admit that we got ripped off. He stated that we should have asked for more panels (which I did but simply cannot prove). That being said, I'm now looking at what my current options are. I'm certainly no fan of my current provider but still have 12 years on my current lease. Any ideas?

[Mrod500]

There is also a concurrent thread about a Sunpower lease. It reminded me that some of these leases offer an option to purchase or prepay. You may wish to review yours and explore your options. If you have a low cost of funds there may be a way to make a poor financial arrangement less of a burden. It wont improve production or reduce consumption but it is something to consider.

Yes. I brought that up to the and they are going to send me a quote. However, I'm sure it will cost more to purchase out the leas than it will to put in a whole new system nowadays but we'll see...

[Ampster]

.... However, I'm sure it will cost more to purchase out the leas than it will to put in a whole new system nowadays but we'll see...

I like to separate the issues to make it easier to look at options. There is the issue of the existing system and whether your cost of funds are low enough to prepay or buyout the lease.

The second issue is more complex because it involves both production and consumption. Can you add another system to supplement your existing sytem or can you change consumption or both. Is there room on your roof? New systems are about $2 or $3 per Watt. When I say change consumption i don't necessarily mean just reduce consumption but most would agree that is the most cost effective. There are ways to shift consumption to lower Time of Use rates. Have you run the rate comparator on PGE website? What rate are you on now?

[Mrod500]

"Have you run the rate comparator on PGE website? What rate are you on now?"

Tiered Rate Plan E1. It gave us the lowest estimated cost.

[Ampster]

.......
Tiered Rate Plan E1. It gave us the lowest estimated cost.

Did you ever get into a penalty tier? Adding the dollars and kWhs from your bills and doing the math, what was your average rate for the year? Hopefully you are paying less than that rate to Sunrun.
I am sure the Sunrun rate has escalated over the years. Is it easy to tell what that rate currently is?

[Mrod500]

Did you ever get into a penalty tier? Adding the dollars and kWhs from your bills and doing the math, what was your average rate for the year? Hopefully you are paying less than that rate to Sunrun.
I am sure the Sunrun rate has escalated over the years. Is it easy to tell what that rate currently is?

Yes, we've encroached the penalty tiers. Yes, SunRun has escalated over the years. 2020 avg electrical usage was 12,795 kWh but I'd have to get the math done and don't have access to all the bills right now.

[khanh dam]

"my system was designed to only offset 44% of our usage "
this is a very common solar sales scam. Sell as many panels that can fit on a roof, and dont' tell customer it's not enough to be a 100% offset. you are screwed. youtube has tons of videos of pissed off sunrun customers. most of the news investigators get them to add a few more panels. I 'd call my local news/scam and see if you can get some relief that way.

[Ampster]

........ I'd have to get the math done and don't have access to all the bills right now.

On page 3 of my bill is a nice table that shows every month in the true up period. If you can find your True Up bill there should be that table under the heading, Summary of NEM Charges. The two totals you want to look at are, Net Usage (kWhrs) and Estimate NEM Charges. You don't need to find all 12 bills.

[Mrod500]

"my system was designed to only offset 44% of our usage "
this is a very common solar sales scam. Sell as many panels that can fit on a roof, and dont' tell customer it's not enough to be a 100% offset. you are screwed. youtube has tons of videos of pissed off sunrun customers. most of the news investigators get them to add a few more panels. I 'd call my local news/scam and see if you can get some relief that way.

Interestingly enough, my roof has room for many more panels. In fact, we questioned GEN110 (who SunRun was outsourcing at the time) as to why our neighbors with the same house had twice as many panels as we did and they're empty nesters. I get people use different amounts of energy but it didn't make sense.