Hello from Poway CA

[Ampster]

I will add a comical aside to range anxiety. I used to have those same thoughts and that is why I leased a Chevy Volt for a while. However, I am 75 years old and I have to pee every hour and a half and conveniently DC fast charging stations are located approximately 100 miles apart on the Interstates in California. In the time that it takes me to do my business, stretch and talk my wife into driving the next leg I have added 125 miles of range. It has become a non issue for me. But a Plug In hybrid is a good alternative.

[Ampster]

I will have to come back later and discuss EVs with you in a new post. ....... On paper I like the Kia Niro PHEV but haven't tried one for size. The test driving will wait until early next year due to budget constraints.

I would look forward to that discussion. I had my eye on the Kia Nero EV and I have heard good things about all the iterations of the Kia Niro. I think by early next year the supply chain may be more to a buyers advantage anyway, especially compared to now when the dealers are adding on premiums just because the supply is limited.

[RichardCullip]

During the past seven years have had a plugin hybrid and 7 EVs. Some were leased and some were purchased. Two were in a business and one was used by an employee/business partner. To me the important issue is to match your needs with the available choices. There are some very good choices out there compared to when I began that journey in 2012 converting a VW Bug to electric.

I will have to come back later and discuss EVs with you in a new post. At this moment I'm still trying to get a firm grip on what my decision parameters will be. I've been driving a 2011 Prius since it was new and it's getting near it's end of life. I like the extended range capacity of a hybrid since we have a few trips each month that exceed the range of a pure EV and I don't like the idea of stopping to charge nor the range anxiety involved in driving a pure EV. Leaning towards a plug-in EV as most of our daily trips are well within the current plug-in EV range. On paper I like the Kia Niro PHEV but haven't tried one for size. The test driving will wait until early next year due to budget constraints.

[Ampster]

During the past seven years have had a plugin hybrid and 7 EVs. Some were leased and some were purchased. Two were in a business and one was used by an employee/business partner. To me the important issue is to match your needs with the available choices. There are some very good choices out there compared to when I began that journey in 2012 converting a VW Bug to electric.

[RichardCullip]

You are correct, It is predictable that mentioning anything to do with the synergy of an EV with rooftop solar and TOU rates would result in pages of argument. I should have known better.

I was hoping for a meaningful dialogue with the OP since he mentioned that he was considering an EV. My apologies to the OP.

Apology accepted. I wasn’t about to jump into the middle of this kurfuffle.

[Ampster]

Saying I hijacked this thread is incorrect. .

You are correct, It is predictable that mentioning anything to do with the synergy of an EV with rooftop solar and TOU rates would result in pages of argument. I should have known better.

I was hoping for a meaningful dialogue with the OP since he mentioned that he was considering an EV. My apologies to the OP.

[J.P.M.]

I answered that in an earlier post.

I called it leveraging solar but it could be called sizing for the future or anything you want to call the concept. Would synergy be a better term? It does have a nice ring to it.

If you want to hijack this thread by leveraging my comment about leveraging, start a new thread about integrated decision making for EV and Solar purchases.

Who started all the talk about ROI of vehicles ? Not me. Look in a mirror. You did.

Saying I hijacked this thread is incorrect. I'm not the hijack police, but I was calling you out on what looks to me like your hijack of the thread and thread topic by asking you "Who said anything about vehicle ROI ?" in what's probably a rhetorical way and intent with the hope of keeping the thread on topic or at least closer to topic.

The way I see it, I was responding to the OP's question about generation credits. I offered the comment that the difference he found had to do with NBC. You then come out of left field and start writing about vehicle ROIs. The OP then wrote he could now "...go on to model the effect of adding a plugin hybrid to my electrical demand...?

You then throw vehicle ROI into the mix

I see your actions as a thread hijack. I see my actions as calling you out for it.

I'll be more specific: What the hell does vehicle ROI have to do with the OP's stated quest/goal for being here : "...to glean information, especially about the nitty gritty details of SDG & E billing" ?

I have a difficult time making a connection between the general thread subject of SDG & E billing and vehicle ROI.

You want to talk about vehicle ROI ? I'd suggest you consider starting a new thread. Better yet, maybe find a vehicle forum that relates to that subject rather than one with a sign over the door that says "Solar Panel Talk".

The last word on your actions related to this thread is yours.

[Ampster]

But what about ROI for a vehicle ?

I answered that in an earlier post.

I do agree that EV charging can be a viable way to lower vehicle fuel costs, and you can call it what, but I'd call that EV charging part of the system load like an increased A/C load due to a home addition which was not part of the original PV sizing or design considerations. Seems to me if I have an oversized system, I'd call an added EV charging load just that - an added load. Put another way, if I oversized an EV system, consiously or ignorantly, when would I consider such added loads "leverage", as opposed to an opportunity to use excess but unplanned generation such as when excess generation is dissipated by heating water that's not needed ? Do I consider every added load to be leverging the system ? Would it be leverage if the oversizing was done with future EV charging in mind ? If so, what roll do proper and knowledgeable sizing and system design play? With most everyone who comes here saying they are going to get PV and also saying they intend to oversize because they are getting an EV "someday", is that considered leveraging a system's output, or simpl,y sizing for future (and known/identified) duties or uses ?

I called it leveraging solar but it could be called sizing for the future or anything you want to call the concept. Would synergy be a better term? It does have a nice ring to it.

If you want to hijack this thread by leveraging my comment about leveraging, start a new thread about integrated decision making for EV and Solar purchases.

[J.P.M.]

Yes that is exactly what I was referring to when I said leverage existing solar. For example several years ago on NEM 1.0 my True up consisted of a 1,000 or so of net kWhrs consumption. My NEM dollar balance was a credit of maybe $100. The True up calculation washed out that credit against my consumption. Much of that consumption was EV charging at off peak and the dollar credit was from generation at Peak and Mid peak.
I am in a different situation in a new location with NEM 2.0 and we will see how that works out.

But what about ROI for a vehicle ? Besides being able to calc an ROI for a vehicle that's partly used for a business as well as vehicles used solely for a business, I'm pretty sure I read your post as : "...One cannot measure the ROI of an automobile purchase (emphasis mine) unless it is used entirely for business...".

I get all that about off peak rates for consumption and on peak rates for generation for T.O.U. under NEM 1.0, and how NEM 2.0 got rid of most of that advantage. I've been and still am in similar situations w/excess generation w/tiered rates. Hell, under the NEM 1.0 times for a lot, if not most old T.O.U. tariff times, a PV system could be sized to generate less than a 100% offset of kWh usage and still result in an annual electric bill < $0. A poster w/the handle Sensij and I hammered that one out a few years ago before NEM 2.0 gutted the advantages.

I do agree that EV charging can be a viable way to lower vehicle fuel costs, and you can call it what, but I'd call that EV charging part of the system load like an increased A/C load due to a home addition which was not part of the original PV sizing or design considerations. Seems to me if I have an oversized system, I'd call an added EV charging load just that - an added load. Put another way, if I oversized an EV system, consiously or ignorantly, when would I consider such added loads "leverage", as opposed to an opportunity to use excess but unplanned generation such as when excess generation is dissipated by heating water that's not needed ? Do I consider every added load to be leverging the system ? Would it be leverage if the oversizing was done with future EV charging in mind ? If so, what roll do proper and knowledgeable sizing and system design play? With most everyone who comes here saying they are going to get PV and also saying they intend to oversize because they are getting an EV "someday", is that considered leveraging a system's output, or simpl,y sizing for future (and known/identified) duties or uses ?

But what does any of that have to do with ROI for a vehicle ?

Another question: How do you measure, or change, or adjust - if at all - PV system cost effectiveness by whatever measure(s) your using if, for example, an oversized system's excess generation (which suffers from some cost ineffectiveness penalty from the oversize) is subsequently used to charge an EV if the super off peak charging rates, say midnite to 6 A.M., are very low as is the case w/some CA POCO T.O.U. rates ? Higher system utilization factor but but lower LCOE.

[Ampster]

Who said anything about ROI ? I'm talking (writing) about being heads' up and informed about the best POCO tariff that minimizes the amount of $$ that EV charging adds to my electric bill.......

Yes that is exactly what I was referring to when I said leverage existing solar. For example several years ago on NEM 1.0 my True up consisted of a 1,000 or so of net kWhrs consumption. My NEM dollar balance was a credit of maybe $100. The True up calculation washed out that credit against my consumption. Much of that consumption was EV charging at off peak and the dollar credit was from generation at Peak and Mid peak. It may sound counterintuitive but I deliberately picked a TOU rate with the greatest differential between Peak and Off Peak which also had the highest Peak rate.
I am in a different situation in a new location with NEM 2.0 and we will see how that works out.

[Ampster]

Who said anything about ROI ?

I mentioned ROI only to frame the discussion in terms of personal use. No need to feel it was a personal insult.

A vehicle is, for non business applications, a mode of point A to point B transportation. it's an expense with no ROI.

No need to restate that since that was my point in the first place and as I mentioned I was just trying to foreclose any irrelevant banter.

Also, if I'm the neighbor your referring to, I don't know where you got the notion but please note that I haven't reached any conclusion(s) yet as to whether or not an EV is in my future....... No conclusions have been reached at this time. ....... That Porsche Taycan is sure looking good at this time. Maybe in a year or two.

Haha, yes you are the neighbor I was referring to. I guess we will have to agree to disagree about whether no decision is a decision or conclusion or not. No worries, it makes an interesting conversation and gives you an opportunity to keep your post count up and add several paragraphs to the server storage.
When I said I have reached a different conclusion 7 years ago I literally made a decision to drive an EV and you have not made a decision yet. I think that was factually correct is it not? Whether you want to call that a non decision or no conclusion is your choice. The Taycan sounds like it is going to be a great EV. What are you waiting for? Or is the Taycan discussion just a red herring?

[J.P.M.]

Mine is another perspective. I have also done extensive modeling and some time ago came to a different conclusion than your neighbor. I have been driving EVs since 2012 and put over 120 I miles on them since then. . One cannot measure the ROI on an automobile purchase unless it is used entirely for business. I have come to the conclusion that driving an EV results in a lower cost per mile of transportation for me and my significant other.

In addition to the lower cost it has allowed me to further leverage my investment in solar. I can go into more detail if you or anyone else is interested.

Who said anything about ROI ? I'm talking (writing) about being heads' up and informed about the best POCO tariff that minimizes the amount of $$ that EV charging adds to my electric bill.

A vehicle is, for non business applications, a mode of point A to point B transportation. it's an expense with no ROI.

Also, if I'm the neighbor your referring to, I don't know where you got the notion but please note that I haven't reached any conclusion(s) yet as to whether or not an EV is in my future. Looks like it'll happen for me, but that's not a slam dunk as to when or in what form it'll take. No conclusions have been reached at this time. As it seems important to you, I'll be sure to let you know when I do reach any conclusions as to what vehicles I drive. I expect the decision will be based partly on economics, partly on reliability, availability, serviceability and the ease of obtaining those things, but mostly on ego. That Porsche Taycan is sure looking good at this time. Maybe in a year or two.

[Ampster]

Amen to that. Now I can go on to modeling the effect of adding a plug-in hybrid to my electrical demand early next year and determining the new "best" TOU rate schedule for my situation.

Mine is another perspective. I have also done extensive modeling and some time ago came to a different conclusion than your neighbor. I have been driving EVs since 2012 and put over 120k miles on them since then. One cannot measure the ROI on an automobile purchase unless it is used entirely for business. I have come to the conclusion that driving an EV results in a lower cost per mile of transportation for me and my significant other.

In addition to the lower cost of transportation it has allowed me to further leverage my investment in solar. I can go into more detail if you or anyone else is interested.

[J.P.M.]

Amen to that. Now I can go on to modeling the effect of adding a plug-in hybrid to my electrical demand early next year and determining the new "best" TOU rate schedule for my situation.

Understood.

FWIW, I started modeling that mod. (adding an EV) by assuming all charging was done at super off peak and added the usage to my non EV usage and then get on a T.O.U. tariff like DR-SES.

If an EV does appear in my future, depending on how much electricity I pump into it, a T.O.U. rate may/may not make sense for me.

Ah, the joys of 8,760+ row spreadsheets.The spreadsheets I have done will take any SDG & E tariff with min. modification, so it's fairly easy to get reasonable #'s for approx. dart throws of consequences of various scenarios.

[RichardCullip]

You're most welcome.

Welcome to the joys of dealing with POCO (non)cooperation and transparency. You have just scratched the surface.

Amen to that. Now I can go on to modeling the effect of adding a plug-in hybrid to my electrical demand early next year and determining the new "best" TOU rate schedule for my situation.