Hi from Northern California SF Bay Area

[oneand0]

I played around with an emergency portable solar unit that plugs into a transfer that's connected to my electrical panel, and boy I got hooked on watching free energy work. It's like a light bulb went on inside me.My electrical bill is so small that I decided it wasn't worth it for me to get solar panels, until I looked into electric vehicles. Now I am sure I will be buying an EV late next year.


My situation is that I would need to install a solar panel system around 8 to 9k to take care of my house and for the amount of miles I have been averaging for a new EV. If I installed a system now, I am going to be moving and retiring in about 6 years to Tahoe. Would it be worth it to purchase a system now and then uninstall it when I move to the retirement home? Or would it be better to just pay for the electricity for the new EV (still cheaper than my gas car) for 6 years and then install a system in the retirement home when I get there? I'm very confused on what is the most sensible thing to do. No sure if there is a topic on transferring/ moving solar panel systems? The EV will be a sure thing though!


Thanks for any thoughts and ideas.

[NochiLife]

Aha, yes, the thrill of free energy! There's nothing quite like it, but the paradigm is that it's rather costly to actually get that free energy...!
I would assume that you're considering a grid-tied system? An EV uses a LOT of power, and solar output is (obviously) dependent on the weather. An EV is not ideal for off-grid solar systems, unless you keep your gas powered car for those long cloudy days.

If you can safely uninstall your system, transport it, and then reinstall it in Tahoe (please not ON a Tahoe ), I'd say go ahead now. That is, if you're able to install/uninstall it yourself--otherwise, the cost to install, uninstall, then reinstall...might come close to the cost of a new system.
Otherwise...if you're looking to recoup a solar investment, the more time you have, the better. Some people install solar to try to make money...and others (like me) installed it just because I wanted to, without any concern for recouping an investment.
Might want to check ahead and see if the/a retirement home will let you install a solar system; if it's a private retirement home/community like I'm thinking, they might not exactly be thrilled with the idea. Of course, if they won't let you install a solar system, then that may make the decision a lot easier.

[J.P.M.]

What NochiLife writes + get/read a copy of "Solar Power Your Home for Dummies" and start your education process. Biggest mistake most people make is assuming they know what they're doing with respect to supplying power with alternate energy. The book is a good $20 primer. Don't get screwed by your own ignorance.

As for installing/uninstalling, IMO, probably not worth it.

BTW: Rough SWAG on EV mileage is ~ 3 miles/kWh, maybe a bit more. So, for example, driving an EV 12,000 miles/yr. will require ~ 4,000 kWh of electricity. Where you are and where you're going, plan on 1,500 to maybe 1,800 kWh/yr. of electricity production per installed STC kW of PV at an installed cost of ~ $3,000/ STC kW., +/- some less any tax credits in effect when installed.

Buy the book.

More BTW: The energy from PV or other alternate energy generation is mostly free. As you may find out, the cost of the equipment to get the free energy is not.

Welcome to the neighborhood.

[Ampster]

...........
My situation is that I would need to install a solar panel system around 8 to 9k to take care of my house and for the amount of miles I have been averaging for a new EV. If I installed a system now, I am going to be moving and retiring in about 6 years to Tahoe. Would it be worth it to purchase a system now and then uninstall it when I move to the retirement home? Or would it be better to just pay for the electricity for the new EV (still cheaper than my gas car) for 6 years and then install a system in the retirement home when I get there? I'm very confused on what is the most sensible thing to do. No sure if there is a topic on transferring/ moving solar panel systems? The EV will be a sure thing though!
.....

Depending on several factors you may come close to paying back the cost of a solar system using an EV for the next six years. Some of those factors are investment tax credit, Time of Use rates, your location and roof inclination with respect to the south facing direction. There is some debate whether your house will see some enhancement in value from the installation of solar but it is possible. One factor to consider is that NEM 2.0 is going to expire and there is some talk that NEM 3.0 may not be as favorable to solar installations. That could enhance the value of a home which has NEM 2.0 solar grandfathered for 20 years. A long shot but with very little downside.
Personally I would take that gamble. Full disclosure, I drive EVs and have solar on 3 buildings I own.

[Mike90250]

If your current site is acceptable (good sun 10am - 4pm) and not shaded, it's likley to break even in your time frame. And then leave it, sell it attached to the house.

Tahoe may be a problem, with all the pesky trees casting shade all over. But if you again have clear view of sky and maybe install a ground mount so you can clear snow off in winter ( and have a place for the snow to be put) that could work too.

[oneand0]

I really appreciate all of the input and forgot to put in there, the primary house I'm living in now will be a rental for extra retirement income and I won't be selling it. The cabin house that I'm moving into I already own in Tahoe and it has enough clearance from trees, that the sun shines on 2/3 of the roof, on East and West. South is a no go, the way the home is built. I'm keeping track of the sun by pictures and video from now until winter. I have over 1/3 acre and can mount more panels on the property from the ground that's free from tree shadows.

Seems I got a mixture of not worth it to move a system, to worth it, if it's DIY. I am confident about the DIY portion of it. I would never pay to put on, take off and put on. Maybe if I am tuckered out pay to put on, on the final move of the system onto the roof of the cabin home.

While I am still working and traveling to the cabin once a month, I am averaging 20,000 miles a year and thats a lot of $$ on gas. Alone I average $3900 a year in gas, and x 5 years is $19500. That's when I realized there is no way my next vehicle will be gasoline. So as of now I will read up and price systems for Grid with the opportunity to go batteries. I'm really liking what I read about the Sol-Ark 8K and I haven't got a clue what brand of panels. I know with the future EV and current monthly electric bill consumption the panel array should be about 8kw at the least.

Thank you again for all of your input. I have time to read up and think about this. If I pull the plug on a system, I want it built by end of next year to take the 26% Federal Credit.

[Mike90250]

Keep the array on your rental and sell the electric to the tenant at market rates.

Taking an array apart and moving it, is a PITA. Even SS hardware gets sticky after 5 years in the weather, the aluminum mounting rails - well all the cuts and holes are not anodized, so they will be crudded up. And then you have the roof repair/resealing.

[bcroe]

the aluminum mounting rails - well all the cuts and holes are not anodized, so they will be crudded up.

Using 6061 aluminum no anodizing is needed, so there is no problem with cuts. Not sure what the
industry does, but my arrays were built up from purchased stock. Bruce Roe

[Ampster]

Using 6061 aluminum no anodizing is needed, so there is no problem with cuts. Not sure what the
industry does, but my arrays were built up from purchased stock. Bruce Roe

I use Alumalastic or other antisieze whenever aluminum and stainless steel are in contact.

[J.P.M.]

I use Alumalastic or other antisieze whenever aluminum and stainless steel are in contact.

Usually it's the stainless on stainless nut to bolt thread contact area that "galls" or cold welds pretty much regardless of what the nut/bolt is holding together. Aluminum in contact with stainless steel is no more of a practical corrosion problem than carbon steel bolting with aluminum with respect to galvanic corrosion. The thread galling of stainless is a function of the properties of most austenitic/300 series and a few martensitic/400 series stainless steels.

Alumilastic or other sealants may prevent some moisture/dirt ingress to the joint and the threads but I'm not sure what it's advantages might be as a means to prevent thread galling. I'd also wonder if such compounds might cause problems if the joint needs to be opened and there's goop in the threads.

Most stainless and aluminum already has a fair amount of natural passivation, except that some types of Aluminum may need a chromate treatment for machined surfaces such as the surface of bolt holes after machining. Anti-galling compounds like "Neverseize" and the like are sometimes used and they are better than nothing. Most such compounds - which are not primarily sealants - usually and mostly rely on the lubrication properties of something called molybdenum disulfide, particularly for its ability to reduce the exfoliation some metals such as 300 series stainless steels experience when in high pressure contact (in effect cold welding) and relative movement as in thread contact for stainless/stainless contact that results in galling and subsequent thread seizing. Such moly disulfide compounds (and some others) certainly have their place, but there are much better ways to do it. After a lot of years designing bolted connections with all sorts of materials and applications, I've learned it's usually best to avoid application of goop to threaded joints as much as possible by using material properties for material choice/selection, keeping in mind that such design solutions may not always be possible. For example, stainless bolting and aluminum bronze nuts will never seize under most any service condition. More $$ up front for the nuts and the joint may not be quite as high pressure capable for pressure retaining joints, but the threads will never seize, reapplication of goop is eliminated and the joint inspection schedule may well be reduced. The relative initial cost of Al-Bronze nuts vs. st. stl. nuts is relatively high, but the overall cost to a project is peanuts compared to the rest of the material costs, and also small compared to the long term cost and hassle of ensuring the goop is properly applied and remains viable, including the cost of maintenance and reinspection which will also be lower. Pay now or pay later.

[Ampster]

Usually it's the stainless on stainless nut to bolt thread contact area that "galls" or cold welds pretty much regardless of what the nut/bolt is holding together.

Yes that is exactly how I currently use an anti seize compound.

Aluminum in contact with stainless steel is no more of a practical corrosion problem than carbon steel bolting with aluminum with respect to galvanic corrosion. The thread galling of stainless is a function of the properties of most austenitic/300 series and a few martensitic/400 series stainless steels.

Alumilastic or other sealants may prevent some moisture/dirt ingress to the joint and the threads but I'm not sure what it's advantages might be as a means to prevent thread galling. I'd also wonder if such compounds might cause problems if the joint needs to be opened and there's goop in the threads.

I haven't been able to find Alumilastic anti seize in a couple of years. The product I use now is Permatex Anti Seize Lubricant and it contains aluminum, copper and graphite. It looks a lot like the Alumilastic that I used to use. That goop makes the joints easy to open years later. Perhaps you are confusing it with threadlocker which does make joints hard to open..

[J.P.M.]

Yes that is exactly how I currently use an anti seize compound.

I haven't been able to find Alumilastic anti seize in a couple of years. The product I use now is Permatex Anti Seize Lubricant and it contains aluminum, copper and graphite. It looks a lot like the Alumilastic that I used to use. That goop makes the joints easy to open years later. Perhaps you are confusing it with threadlocker which does make joints hard to open..

No, I'm not confused. Permatex is one of several thread lubricants used, although I believe there are more fit for purpose products for st. stl. nut/bolt systems. Another product, and IMO, a more fit for purpose product is Permaslik, made by Everlube, which contains MoS2 (Molybdenum Disulfide). Most all thread lubricants, even,10W30 motor oil have some anti-galling properties. Other specific thread lube products can rely mostly on graphite, copper or other metallic powders. All that's OK, but for st. stl. fasteners (and also to a lesser degree copper and titanium threaded joints) that don't need lubrication any more than any other bolted joint but can gall, specific anti-galling characteristics of MoS2 are usually more fit for purpose.

Note: the need for thread lubrication and the need and methods to prevent galling are two different animals. Galling is a phenomenon that's actually a form of cold, or pressure welding (and slightly but not entirely off topic, not unlike what is required to produce a good battery terminal of line joint). Lubrication reduces friction. A lubed st. stl. theaded joint can and may well gall, even when lubricated. Seen it, done it and watched the bolts cut off a off myself from an early career failure to eer. Galling is a phenomenon specific to certain metals including st. stl., copper, aluminum, or most often metals that form an oxide surface layer. Simple Lubrication alone may not stop it.

Compounds that contain molybdenum disulfide will give better protection from galling. Still, any thread goop including MoS2 compounds is a second choice measure to avoid galling, but given the real world, probably a necessary measure on st. stl. nut/bolt systems of the type sometimes used for PV assemblies. Although perhaps real world impractical, better yet are measures that tend to help avoid the creation of the galling problem in the first place, starting with material selection. Using dissimilar metals such as 304/316 stainless, or as I mentioned before, Al-Bronze nuts works well to avoid galling in the first place. After that, pre-joining mating parts and not drawing them together by drawing down the nut and so avoiding thread friction to the greatest degree possible is a good but time consuming practice. Expecting such measures will be done without adding draconian level supervision is unrealistic. Also, tightening a joint S L O W L Y if galling is possible is another good practice. There are other tricks. I appreciate that such methods are probably not practiced on PV arrays.

As for your confusion comment, after an engineering career spent mostly as a mechanical P.E., and a fair portion of that time spent egularly designing bolted connections and bolting systems for boiler and pressure vessel systems and also structural systems supporting those systems, I'm of the opinion that I'm not as confused about bolted connections, what makes a good one and how to achieve a fit for purpose, safe and serviceable joint as you may be ignorant of the mechanisms that cause galling or the methods available to deal with the problem.

Although I don't usually recommend it, Wikipedia has a pretty good primer on the subject under "galling". You might learn something instead of repeating what you read or referencing stuff that fits your often half informed ideas. It might be worth a sniff.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

[Ampster]

I will try to remember that treatise when my current bottle of Permatex runs out in about 20 years.

[bcroe]

Thanks for the above info. My own limited experience is that the standard hardware
used so successfully in cars and indoors, fails miserably outside. I do not expect
anything to last forever exposed to the elements, so then my question is, how long
is long enough?

For solar aps the rule here is 2 decades, while hoping for a bit more. While treated
wood is very cheap, it is a one time job with expectations of much of a decade. For
longer times one thing I do not want is materials that rust and hardware that freezes
solid. The basic plated hardware after an outdoor year is removed by turning the nut
until the bolt twists off. After 6 years outside, I find the 6061 struts and 18-8 hardware
are still quite serviceable. I do not expect an infinite life, but a good 2 decades looks
like a possibility, with no maintenance but allowing easy mods.

A really close look at my latest constructs reveals a lot more holes than the job
requires. That is because nearly half the struts on the latest were used on an
earlier project, then repurposed for the latest. Bruce Roe

[J.P.M.]

I will try to remember that treatise when my current bottle of Permatex runs out in about 20 years.

Just reread the last sentence.

FWIW, this being a place to exchange/provide information, I attempt to contribute useful and correct information when I feel it's appropriate and within my area of personal experience and claimed professional competence. When doing so, it's also done with an eye not only to the post I'm responding to but also in a larger sense to others who may have some use of the information. Unless a safety issue is involved, my written spoor is provided on a FWIW basis, take it/leave it or anything in between.

I never expected you to have much use or understanding of any of it. In this case, I'm just fleshing out what I consider your anecdotally incomplete missives.

I'm out of this thread.