Northern California Newbee

[ziomeks]

I had installed a system on my home in May of this year. Between the local inspector and PGE, the system finally went on line on June 7. Since that day, PGE is reporting me producing power every day in excess of my consumption. I'm a happy man... So far. Since this is my first year, I have no experience of what the future holds. I must say I have a guarded feeling about the outcome of the first year. My desire to the installer was to push the generation so that I can have a $0 true up or as close as possible. SO far so good. I average ~1.3MW consumption per month.

I do have a question though, it's about the PGE bill I got. There are a couple of charges that are very poorly explained and am seeking a clear understanding. Exactly where on this site do I post the question(s) in detail?

[Ampster]

I am a PG & E customer and would be glad to help. Do you know if you are also in a Community Choice Aggregation service area. I am in Sonoma County and am served by Sonoma Clean Power. Having a CCA can add complexity to your bill but there are other benefits.Whar particular charges are you trying to understand?

If this is the wrong place perhaps the Mods can start a new thread titled California PG & E or something similar.

EDIT I checked and SolanoCounty has joined Marin Clean Energy. That means that the generation portion of your bill will be provided by MCE and distribution will come from PG&E. The billing will continue from PG&E. MCE may be paying more for your excess generation at true up. There are other benefits Here is a link to MCE site for more information.
https://www.mcecleanenergy.org/news/...ano-joins-mce/

[ziomeks]

OH WOW, MCE? I know nothing of that. To me, all was PGE and that was that. I'm surprised. I will check that out for sure. With Fairfield, Solano County there is no CCA that I am aware of.

Here goes the questions. Please confirm/deny/explain what is this:

1. ELECTRIC MONTHLY CHARGES; number of days in the billing cycle times $0.32854 plus my city Utility Tax @ 2%. This is the first of the non-bypassable charges. What is it for? Then there is a dependence on Delivery Charges. I thought this WAS the delivery charge. It definitely shows up on page one and needs to be paid monthly and not at TRUE-UP.

2. ENERGY CHARGES; Again, what in the world is this and how is it calculated? The bill asks you to check out the website, but I can find nothing of substance to explain it. The bill attempts to explain but is so convoluted, I can not follow.

3. STATE MANDATED Non-Bypassable Charges; This is the second of non-bypassable charges. It just feels that the CPUC has to get their money from somewhere, but I truly just don't know.
This charge is debited against my excess production and is not lined item-ed like point #1 above. Then, again, lots of convoluted text that makes no sense to me.

4. NEM Account Summary; Then, out of thin air, the State mandated charges are shown with a deduction of the Delivery charges. WHAT???? Makes NO sense at all. Each month these two items are considered non-bypassable and are indeed paid for in the billing statement. Then show up again??

I have contacted PGE about these issues twice and I still have an open ticket for a manager to explain. SO far, two weeks have gone by and no response. The SOLAR help line from PGE is no help at all. In fact, I found them clueless to many issues that should be obvious. Read... NO confidence.

I track my usage from the PGE web site. I first check the bar graph, then I download the Comma Separated Value (CSV) file to process in my excel spreadsheet I have. Using the production data from SolarEdge, I can correlate usage and production and discover real consumption. Yes, there is an accuracy issue when doing this but as a "indicator," it works well. So the problem came up on the first day of the new cycle from June 26 to July 30. PGE showed the first three hours of the day as ZERO usage (not possible in my home). The next 24 numbers exactly matched the bar chart as shown on their site. To me it means that the data is now skewed by three hours in the CSV file. PGE maintains that the CSV file is the only true file and that it is 100% correct. I say their nuts.

Lots of stuff here. As a newbie, just trying to understand. Thanks for listening. I sure would appreciate some explanations on the above.

[bcroe]

It just feels that the CPUC has to get their money from somewhere

That seems to be the game today, no rate change but just keep adding other charges. My
conclusion was that the fewer utilities I was connected to, the less of this abuse I would
get. It was the final tipping point in going solar instead of connecting to gas. Bruce Roe

[Ampster]

OH WOW, MCE? I know nothing of that. To me, all was PGE and that was that. I'm surprised. I will check that out for sure. With Fairfield, Solano County there is no CCA that I am aware of.

The CCA is an opt out program so you will be enrolled automatically. If you have separate charges at the end of your bill then you are in MCE. Perhaps Solano County is using rolling enrollments or your participation is delayed until your next true up. Nothing urgent to worry about.

Here goes the questions. Please confirm/deny/explain what is this:

1. ELECTRIC MONTHLY CHARGES; number of days in the billing cycle times $0.32854 plus my city Utility Tax @ 2%. This is the first of the non-bypassable charges. What is it for? Then there is a dependence on Delivery Charges. I thought this WAS the delivery charge. It definitely shows up on page one and needs to be paid monthly and not at TRUE-UP.

This is not one of the Non Bypassable Charges. It is a minimum charge. I look at it as the cost of using the grid as a battery. As the bill says it can be deducted from your NEM charges if you owe money at true up. If you don't owe money at true up they get to keep it. In my opinion, it was a gift from the CPUC to the IOUs when they forced NEM 2.0 on them.
I don't know what you mean by dependence on Delivery Charges? I don't have another line item on that page of my bill. On my bill attached it is in the amount of $9.53(See Page 5 of my attachment)

2. ENERGY CHARGES; Again, what in the world is this and how is it calculated? The bill asks you to check out the website, but I can find nothing of substance to explain it. The bill attempts to explain but is so convoluted, I can not follow.

I don't know exactly what you are referring to or which page it shows up on your bill so I can not comment. If you see a relevant item on my bill, tell me which amount you are talking about and I can comment.

3. STATE MANDATED Non-Bypassable Charges; This is the second of non-bypassable charges. It just feels that the CPUC has to get their money from somewhere, but I truly just don't know.
This charge is debited against my excess production and is not lined item-ed like point #1 above. Then, again, lots of convoluted text that makes no sense to me.

This is essentially a surcharge on power that you consume from the grid. It amounts to approximately $0.02 per kWh. There is no kWhs associated with this that shows on the bill but in my case I know that all of the power I consume at Off Peak Rates and some that I consume during Peak and Part Peak. In my case it is $11.82 last month. Since I expect to have a negative true up balance at the end of the relevant period, I guess that is when I will pay the NBC accumulated balance. I am still not clear on the exact math.

4. NEM Account Summary; Then, out of thin air, the State mandated charges are shown with a deduction of the Delivery charges. WHAT???? Makes NO sense at all. Each month these two items are considered non-bypassable and are indeed paid for in the billing statement. Then show up again??

There is a long explanation of the deduction of delivery charges. I will keep it short, but can go into detail if you want. On my bill this shows up as $74.78, If you have this it tells me that you probably are in MCE and this is a deduction for the power that should be billed on a separate page. See my attachment under the heading Details of Sonoma Clean Power on Page 7. Remember that with a CCA you pay PG&E for distribution and MCE for Electric Generation. It would be a lot simpler if PG&E would do that calculation at the net rate but for some reason they couldn't figure it out so it ends up being confusing especially when they are deducting a negative number which shows up as a positive number at least in my case. The math is correct but the presentation leaves a lot to be desired. The thing that is important is that the MCE rate is cheaper than PG&E rate. On my bill SCP charged (credited) me $69.55 versus the $74.78 that PG&E would have charged me. Of course the irony is when you are a net generator a cheaper rate isn't always better. In the end I will get more back from SCP at true up because they pay out at the full rate. At true up PG$E only pays out at wholesale rates at true up.

I have contacted PGE about these issues twice and I still have an open ticket for a manager to explain. SO far, two weeks have gone by and no response. The SOLAR help line from PGE is no help at all. In fact, I found them clueless to many issues that should be obvious. Read... NO confidence.

I track my usage from the PGE web site. I first check the bar graph, then I download the Comma Separated Value (CSV) file to process in my excel spreadsheet I have. Using the production data from SolarEdge, I can correlate usage and production and discover real consumption. Yes, there is an accuracy issue when doing this but as a "indicator," it works well. So the problem came up on the first day of the new cycle from June 26 to July 30. PGE showed the first three hours of the day as ZERO usage (not possible in my home). The next 24 numbers exactly matched the bar chart as shown on their site. To me it means that the data is now skewed by three hours in the CSV file. PGE maintains that the CSV file is the only true file and that it is 100% correct. I say their nuts.

Lots of stuff here. As a newbie, just trying to understand. Thanks for listening. I sure would appreciate some explanations on the above.

If indeed you are on MCE I would give them a call and see if they can answer the issue why PG&E can't make the bill a lot simpler. It is the same issue with SCP and I am sure all the other CCAs in PG&E territory. The CCAs are limited by the billing capability of PG&E.
I have not gone down to the granular level which I believe is in 15 minute intervals. My goal is to have a negative NEM balance and pay nothing at true up. I have two EVs and can charge them a lot more at Off Peak rates to try to bring my average daily usage up from the negative 4.02kWhs per day that I am now. Most of that incremental consumption will be at Off peak rates so I could conceivable be a net consumer of power and still have a negative dollar NEM balance.
I hope this helps. I agree is is very confusing. I have the advantage of having been on NEM 1.0 with SCE for several years earlier where it was easier to understand.
PGE Pg 5 6s.pdf
PGE Pg7.pdf

[ziomeks]

I visited the MCE web site and although it mentions Solano County a lot, there is no mention of the city of Fairfield being a current member. In fact there is a paragraph that states we may be a part of the future, but not now. My bill has no mention of such organization on any of the 8 pages. I will be aware of this possible move thanks to you. I guess no worries for now.

1. OK, I like what you say, "cost of using the grid." Got it. I can understand this. Notice that on your page 5, the $9.53 is named both a "Monthly" charge and a "Minimum Delivery" charge. A bit confusing when you are detailing the small bits of the bill. My guess is that we need to understand the lingo as presented by PGE.

2. On my page 3, there is a small chart named "Electric Charges." in that chart, it shows Minimum Delivery charge as a column, right next to the Energy Charges column. The Energy Charges column has an asteric that refers you to their web site, but I cannot find any explanation on this. For me, it is showing -$63.39.

3. It was described to me as the monthly consumption figure multiplied by ~.015 to .020. OK, I get this one too, sort of. Seams a bit loosey-goosey though. I do not agree with you that it will be offset. The way I see it, this charge is taken out of your production dollars on a monthly basis. I see no other scheme that gives this money back to me.

4. Oh, I need to digest your response. I will hold in reserve further comment until I do so.

I have just downloaded the CSV file for my daily update and lo and behold, the goofy offset that was there from the first day of the billing cycle is now gone! Good gracious me, you would think all of this would not be so error prone.

BTW, I'm a TOU-B plan person and only have the peak and off peak values. At least some reduction in complication. Still chewing on point 4, be back soon. Thank you.

[Ampster]

You are correct about MCE in Solano County. I realize that it applied in the unincorporated part of the County but each City has to resolve to participate. In the case of Fairfield that has not happened. It does make your bill simpler if that is any consolation.

Page 3, which I did not include, is a summary page. I keep a spreadsheet that has most of that information in a format that allows me to see the trends and conveniently have one place to find the latest detail plus the accumulated balances so I don't have to go back to the individual bills. I do not have a column with an asterisk so I can.t help clarify that.My takeaway is that it is information from previous bills and does not affect any of the current month amounts.

Regarding the NBCs, I did not mean to imply that you would get it back. I thought it was possible that it might be offset by NEM credits at true up.I honestly don't know. The concept was always that it was kept in a separate bucket. I wont know for sure until I hit my true up in February 2020.From all the discussions I have read on other websites this is the most confusing item. I did change my earlier response to eliminate some of the ambiguity in that response.

Regarding point 4, if you are not in MCE then there should not be a deduction like I have on page 6 of my bill.
I have no explanation for what you earlier described as a deduction of Delivery Charges. If that comes from the summary on page 1 it is just a YTD summary and the items in the column do not necessarily add up I would have to see it to know that we are talking about the same thing.

My strategy with regard to following my charges is I do not want to end up with a large credit in dollars or consumption because that would be a waste. As power generation winds down during the winter I can manage or shift my consumption. I do not want to leave a large credit on the table at true up only to have PG&E pay me wholesale for those kWhrs. I would rather use them at a more convenient time or charge my cars at home instead of going to a free or discounted Supercharger. The only thing I can't control is my wife who has found Superchargers near Outlet Malls. That is a digression not worthy of further discussion. LOL

[ziomeks]

I was finally able to scan in my bill, you now can see what I'm talking about. In terms of point 4, draw your attention to my page 1. Notice the NEM summary. This is the strange math that makes no sense to me. Still digesting the rest.

[ziomeks]

Just for giggles, here's a sample of my excel tracking

[Ampster]

I was finally able to scan in my bill, you now can see what I'm talking about. In terms of point 4, draw your attention to my page 1. Notice the NEM summary. This is the strange math that makes no sense to me. Still digesting the rest.

All those numbers must come from some underlying detail pages. At least that is how my page 1 is constructed. I can't even begin to understand yours without seeing the other pages. My page 1 has 3 lines after the previous month statement and payment amounts. They are:
Current PG&E Monthly Charges $9.53 (this is the Same minimum delivery amount shown on page 5)

Sonoma Clean Power Electric Generation Charges $0.0 (this came from the bottom of page 7. You don't have a CCA so your number must have come from some other detail page)

Current Gas Charges (like the others this total came from an underlying detail page)

The separate box below labeled, Your Net Energy Metering (NEM) Account Summary contains 3 numbers in a column plus a number in a colum to the right. Normal accounting presentation would suggest that the 4th number would represent a total but it is not a total of the other 3 numbers above it and to the left in a column. I can trace each to a number in the detail page and on page 3 the same group of numbers, except for the NBC number which appears to be a cumulative total less some unknown credit. Since that number is less than the total of my monthly NBCs I haven't researched the math. You have piqued my interest and I may go back and try to reconcile.

[ziomeks]

My second monthly bill has arrived. Same ol tricks, numbers appear with no underlying detail. Calculations made with no rational explanation. My open ticket with PGE has yet to be responded to as to how these numbers magically appear. How do they get away with this?

[Ampster]

My second monthly bill has arrived. Same ol tricks, numbers appear with no underlying detail. Calculations made with no rational explanation. My open ticket with PGE has yet to be responded to as to how these numbers magically appear. How do they get away with this?

The only thing on my bill that is difficult to understand is the NBC numbers. Other than that all the totals come from underlying detail pages. I am not defending PG&E, their bills could be easier to understand, but I see no falsification.

Is your NEM YTD amount (for two months) a credit balance?

[J.P.M.]

My second monthly bill has arrived. Same ol tricks, numbers appear with no underlying detail. Calculations made with no rational explanation. My open ticket with PGE has yet to be responded to as to how these numbers magically appear. How do they get away with this?

They get away with it because the CPUC has written the rules in ways that allow it. That's just the way it is.

You are not alone in your confusion and frustration, but the system is what it is and has been that way at least as long as I've been in CA.

However, know that with some diligence, patience and persistence, and if you choose, you can make sense of it. It took me awhile, but it does and can make sense to you. Just know that the task is not for the feint of heart. I found it helpful to stop assuming I understood what any of the cryptic jargon means and just start at the beginning, don't assume anything and get explanations I understand before moving on to the next topic. Also, I learned never to expect the POCO to be helpful and forthcoming with explanations (Why would they ?). I did find the old method of being polite and professional while at the same time persistent on the phone and getting everyone's name up front when I spoke with them helped. I also found varying levels of knowledgeability among those I spoke with. Keeping a log of conversations also helped. FWIW, getting how NBC worked straight in my mind was particularly bothersome, but eventually, it made sense. I still get surprised on a regular basis.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

[ziomeks]

Well, it's been several weeks and the promises given to me from PGE never materialized. So I called them back. After nearly 1.5 hrs on the phone, bouncing from person to person, I still don't have the NBC confusion sorted out. I found a disturbing comment, however, from the Tesla blog site. Apparently, the monthly NEM summary does NOT include the accumulating NBC charges and are only brought up at 'True-Up.' Can anyone confirm this?

[Ampster]

........... . Apparently, the monthly NEM summary does NOT include the accumulating NBC charges and are only brought up at 'True-Up.' Can anyone confirm this?

As I explained earlier, the accumulated NBC charges are on page 1 in the box labeled "Your Net Energy Metering (NEM) Account Summary". As I also explained earlier it is my belief that the accumulated NBC charges will be offset by accumulated NEM credits. That calculation is not done until true up. I also suspect it will be done against the lower rate used to calculate any true up payment to you. In the case of a NEM balance owed at true up then the accumulated NBC charges will be added to the accumulated NEM balance and the customer will have a bigger true up payment than anticipated. Perhaps this is what you meant by the statement that they, "are only brought up at 'true up'."