Aloha from a Solar Newbie in Hawaii

[littleharbor]

For redundancy, which it sounds like you are into, keep the 100 watt panels on a separate charge controller. If one of the two controllers kick the bucket you still have a functional one to limp by till you replace the DOA controller.

You can series wire two 100 watt panels to get similar voltage to the 300 watt panels. These paired 12 volt panels CAN be run in parallel with the big panels. Don't series wire them with the big panels because the lower current will pull down the whole string, making the 300 watt panels act like 200 watt panels.

[J.P.M.]

JPM,

The hospitals here have exactly 1 weeks worth of fuel, after that, they are out. If you remember when Hurricane Iniki struck Hawaii, and also with the recent hurricane in Puerto Rico, Hospital generators were running out of fuel. We have to think of things a lot different being on an island then you do on the mainland. You can't just drive a truck from the nearest town to deliver more fuel for generators, it has to be flown in or come by tanker ship, and that is only IF the airport and docks were not destroyed by the disaster, both of which are sitting at sea level and are targets for tsunamis. If anything happens to the airport and docks we are on our own for at least a month. That's why we do not like to depend on anything that requires fuel here. We have learned from past experiences.

Also, there is the fuel storage issue. We are not like the mainland where we can have a storage shed way back in the yard away from the house to store things like that in. All of that fuel would have to be stored in my garage, directly under my radio room and bedroom. Not happening. I was a firefighter for 17 years, I will not store more than a gallon of fuel in my home.

If limited fuel storage and subsequent fuel shortage is an issue what about storing more potential running hours of fuel ? What about propane as a fuel source ?

I'm not going to say every situation can always be met. I'm only suggesting if you want the highest probability of making it through an emergency, at this time the best way to achieve that goal is proper planning and use of easily available and better understood resources that are more mainstream.

BTW, batteries also have maint. and availability issues and also fail in emergencies as do poorly maintained PV systems in hurricanes for example. Plan for it you say ? Beef up the array to withstand 160 MPH winds ? Get more batteries ? Yup. It's called planning. Same as redundant generation and more fuel to address long outages with parts and fuel in no/short supply.

There's no failsafe/100 % reliable system. We all know that. But at this juncture in history, you'll get closer to 100 % emergency reliability with conventional means and heads up planning. But know that whatever means you choose to get there, the higher the system reliability, the more $$ it'll cost. You'll simply get higher probability of making it through for less $$ with conventional means.

I'm a big solar fan but being one and maybe knowing something about it makes me aware that alternate energy has some limitations not talked about by greenwashers, and some of those limitations are more difficult to overcome than those using conventional means to meet a duty.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

[jflorey2]

solar panels that are on Craigslist are not even on this island, they are over 200 miles away on a different island. The only panels available on this island are for solar hot water, which I already have.

What island are you on?

I finally got Renogy talked into shipping their panels to me. I have been trying to get their panels for months and they finally agreed to it today. So, hopefully in about a month or so I will have 4 new Renogy 300-watt 24-volt panels to install.

Cool, that sounds good.

As far as adding batteries to the bank, unfortunately, I have to do it as I can afford them. I know it is frowned upon, but so is an empty bank account on grocery shopping day, lol.

So is having a battery bank prematurely fail. But it's your money.

is there a way of still using the 100-watt 12-volt panels that I already have on a separate solar charge controller to add what little they can to the system until I can get more 300-watt 24-volt panels shipped in later?

Yes. Two sets of panels, each with their own charge controller, can be added to the same battery bank. Each should be fused/breakered separately.

[jflorey2]

The hospitals here have exactly 1 weeks worth of fuel, after that, they are out. If you remember when Hurricane Iniki struck Hawaii, and also with the recent hurricane in Puerto Rico, Hospital generators were running out of fuel. We have to think of things a lot different being on an island then you do on the mainland. You can't just drive a truck from the nearest town to deliver more fuel for generators, it has to be flown in or come by tanker ship, and that is only IF the airport and docks were not destroyed by the disaster, both of which are sitting at sea level and are targets for tsunamis. If anything happens to the airport and docks we are on our own for at least a month.

OK.

Two propane fed 2200 watt generators are about $450 each, from Walmart (so you can get them there.) Get a few rebuild kits as well. A 500 gallon propane tank is about $1000. That will give you 2000 watts (your approximate load) for a year - without any fuel economy measures, like shutting down at night. And having two generators, so you can be fixing one while the other one runs, is about as fault tolerant as it comes.

Also, the tank will be set on a concrete base, and the generators will be inside some sort of shelter. Both are likely to survive that massive hurricane you are talking about. Wind and solar are less likely.

If you want to do solar, like I said, it's your money. But if you want reliable power for months, a generator might be cheaper. Going "green" is great, but after a disaster where you are isolated for months it will be the least of your concerns.

[bcroe]

To meet those needs, I would bury a 500 gallon propane tank, of which maybe 400 are
useable. Never mind those big box generators, they are powered by a lawn mower type
engine which is not very efficient at partial load, they do not have a mapped spark
advance such as your car. And not super long lived at 3600 rpm. Get a smaller variable
speed propane gen set.

Energy wise a gallon of propane equals 27 KWH. Probably 1/4 of that, or 7KWH will come
out of the generator. A reserve of 2800 KWH, months.

Then the equipment. Running software on a laptop should use very little power, check out
all the other gear as well. In cleaning up vampire loads here, I found lots of power supplies
wasting more power than the intended load. You have a solid state Xmitter, run 100W, no
warm up? There may be much opportunity to reduce power and fuel consumption. Will
your antenna stay up, is it efficient?

You have not answered about hours of operation yet. I can get pretty high power over 8 or
10 hours a day with my specially oriented solar array, and substantial power under some
clouding as well. 24 hour operation will require an annoying generator or a very expensive,
troublesome, inefficient, and very limited capability battery system

You like panels, how much unshadowed space do you have? I have most of an acre
dedicated to getting the most hours out of a day.

What I seem to be reading between the lines, is you do not have the money or space to
build up a large, capable off grid system.

I thought the military had a huge presence in HI, and Nimitz oversaw building a massive
underground fuel storage facility? I would expect them to be operational indefinitely. Bruce Roe

[WH6FQE]

For redundancy, which it sounds like you are into, keep the 100 watt panels on a separate charge controller. If one of the two controllers kick the bucket you still have a functional one to limp by till you replace the DOA controller.

You can series wire two 100 watt panels to get similar voltage to the 300 watt panels. These paired 12 volt panels CAN be run in parallel with the big panels. Don't series wire them with the big panels because the lower current will pull down the whole string, making the 300 watt panels act like 200 watt panels.

Ok thanks, Thats what I was thinking, keep them on separate controllers as a redundant backup. Once I can get 4 more of the 300-watt 24-volt panels shipped in along with another charger I will drop the 100-watt panels from the system. I know the smaller panels aren't going to put out anywhere near what the larger ones would, but at least they can try to give what little they can to the overall system since I already have them. When I change them out I will be installing the 100-watt panels on the roof of my van to set up a solar system in there as a mobile backup communications system.

RC
WH6FQE

[WH6FQE]

What island are you on?

Cool, that sounds good.

I am on Oahu

RC
WH6FQE

[WH6FQE]

OK.

Two propane fed 2200 watt generators are about $450 each, from Walmart (so you can get them there.) Get a few rebuild kits as well. A 500 gallon propane tank is about $1000. That will give you 2000 watts (your approximate load) for a year - without any fuel economy measures, like shutting down at night. And having two generators, so you can be fixing one while the other one runs, is about as fault tolerant as it comes.

Also, the tank will be set on a concrete base, and the generators will be inside some sort of shelter. Both are likely to survive that massive hurricane you are talking about. Wind and solar are less likely.

If you want to do solar, like I said, it's your money. But if you want reliable power for months, a generator might be cheaper. Going "green" is great, but after a disaster where you are isolated for months it will be the least of your concerns.

I can try to order the generators from WalMart as a last ditch emergency plan, but just because they are available on the WalMart website does not mean they will ship them to Hawaii. WalMart also has 35' telescoping antenna masts on their website yet they will not ship them here. I already tried to order the antenna mast online a few months ago and the order went through. They shipped the masts out from Arizona to Hawaii and when they arrived at YRC Freight in Honolulu to be delivered and the online tracking showed that it was to be delivered that day Walmart canceled the order and had them ship the mast back to Arizona saying that they were shipped to me by mistake.

As far as a 1,000 gallon propane tank, in your dreams. There is no yard to install a propane tank. As I said earlier the ONLY fuel storage option I have is in my garage directly under my radio room and bedroom. My property extends exactly 5 feet on each side of my house, and even if I had a larger yard, the HOA will not allow ANY propane tanks which can be viewable from the street. My house sits on a corner lot so my entire property is viewable from the street. My only option to have a generator here is to basically be sleeping directly over a bomb waiting to go off.

I have no idea what kind of RF noise this generator is going to create. I do know that ALL generators create some RF interference, which will possibly prevent me from operating my radio station. I did try a small generator from Costco last year and it was completely useless as the RF interference from it completely wiped out my radios, I couldnt hear anything on the HF bands. I hope this one is better than that piece of crap was, I ended up giving that one away because I couldn't use it.


RC
WH6FQE

[jflorey2]

I can try to order the generators from WalMart as a last ditch emergency plan, but just because they are available on the WalMart website does not mean they will ship them to Hawaii.

I'd have trouble believing that Oahu has no propane generators for sale, anywhere.

the HOA will not allow ANY propane tanks which can be viewable from the street.

But they allow HF antennas? Odd.

My house sits on a corner lot so my entire property is viewable from the street. My only option to have a generator here is to basically be sleeping directly over a bomb waiting to go off.

Your alternative is to be sleeping over a battery bomb waiting to go off. Given the large number of people who install and maintain propane systems - and the small number that maintain lead acid battery systems - I'd argue that a propane tank installed by a delivery company is far safer than a homebrew battery system.

Again, batteries aren't black boxes that take in and give out energy. They need to be maintained, and that means your favorite shirt will end up with acid holes in them. Your floor will turn black. And if you overcharge them, you'll generate hydrogen, which can explode unless you are very careful with ventilation.

I have no idea what kind of RF noise this generator is going to create.

As do solar charge controllers and inverters. This has been a big problem in the past that other hams have experienced.

[WH6FQE]

To meet those needs, I would bury a 500 gallon propane tank, of which maybe 400 are
useable. Never mind those big box generators, they are powered by a lawn mower type
engine which is not very efficient at partial load, they do not have a mapped spark
advance such as your car. And not super long lived at 3600 rpm. Get a smaller variable
speed propane gen set.

I have no room for a propane tank in my yard. My yard is 5 feet on each side of the house, including the sidewalks.

Then the equipment. Running software on a laptop should use very little power, check out
all the other gear as well. In cleaning up vampire loads here, I found lots of power supplies
wasting more power than the intended load. You have a solid state Xmitter, run 100W, no
warm up? There may be much opportunity to reduce power and fuel consumption. Will
your antenna stay up, is it efficient?

All antennas are a compromise, and none are perfectly efficient. Wire antennas are the ONLY antennas that are used in this type of an operation because they are the only antennas that will withstand hurricane force winds if they are installed properly. My antennas are designed with counter balance weights to allow movement to handle a Cat 5 hurricane, beyond that who knows. That is why I have 4 identicle wire antennas in my garage which take me about 5 minutes to have installed to replace a broken one with. I have replacement antennas for every antenna that I have up.

You have not answered about hours of operation yet. I can get pretty high power over 8 or
10 hours a day with my specially oriented solar array, and substantial power under some
clouding as well. 24 hour operation will require an annoying generator or a very expensive,
troublesome, inefficient, and very limited capability battery system

As I said this station operates 24-hours a day, 7-days a week, 365-days a year. I do not have to be at my station for it to operate, the majority of it is all automated by the computers.

You like panels, how much unshadowed space do you have? I have most of an acre
dedicated to getting the most hours out of a day.

I have the roof of my house to use, and my lanai, that is it. The first set of panels will be installed on a small roof directly outside and below my radio room wondows above my garage door which faces due South. The next set of panels will also be put on a South facing roof which can hold another 10 panels. After that I have East and West facing roofs that can be used. Mine is one of the lucky houses that have some South facing roof, almost every house here with solar on them only face East and West, but they still have panels installed on both sides to take advantage of every little bit they can. All of my South facing panels will be in direct sunlight, and the East and West are in direct sunslight for a portion of the day as the sun passes overhead. There are no trees or structures to shade my panels on my property or any nearby property. The palm trees that we have are all well below the roof of the 2 story house and they grow extremely slow. We have been in this house for 17 years now and can barely notice any growth in the tree height over that time.

I thought the military had a huge presence in HI, and Nimitz oversaw building a massive
underground fuel storage facility? I would expect them to be operational indefinitely. Bruce Roe

Yes, they do, for THEIR USE. They will not open up their storage for the citizens. It didnt happen after Hurricane Iniki, or any other disaster Hawaii has experienced. The militaries supplies are for them, and our supplies are for us. That fuel is for their ships and planes, period. And by the way, their underground fuel storage tanks are being removed because they are now leaking fuel into the ground around them. They have above ground storage tanks, just like refineries.

RC
WH6FQE

[WH6FQE]

jflorey2
It took me over a year of fighting with the HOA before they allowed my antennas, and it wasn't until the Antenna Parity Act started making its way through congress before they finally gave in and allowed them. I also filed suit over their infringement of my first amendment protected rights since they are acting as a "quasi-governmental organization". The suit more than likely wouldn't have gone anywhere, but I had enough backing from the homeowners which refused to allow them to use their homeowner dues to fight a lengthy battle in court, so they gave in.

I also have the heads of both the Honolulu Department of Emergency Management, and the Hawaii Emergency Management Agency as neighbors which also intervened on my behalf because I handle long-distance emergency communications for their agencies.

I still have strict limits on my antennas, but they are working with me on them now. We are also working with other HOA's on the island to teach them about the importance of amateur radio operators and their need for antennas to try to get other HOA's to loosen up antenna restrictions here, which we are starting to have some success with several of them.

RC
WH6FQE

[Mike90250]

....... I have no idea what kind of RF noise this generator is going to create. I do know that ALL generators create some RF interference, which will possibly prevent me from operating my radio station. I did try a small generator from Costco last year and it was completely useless as the RF interference from it completely wiped out my radios, I couldnt hear anything on the HF bands. I hope this one is better than that piece of crap was, I ended up giving that one away because I couldn't use it......

Then you are in trouble.
PWM solar charge controllers make hash 30 - 10 KHZ switching noise
MPPT controllers make more hash 5-30 MHZ switching noise
Inverters make hash too.
Most 60hZ alternators make very little noise, it's likely an unshielded/unsuppressed spark plug causing the noise.

[bcroe]

Yes city HAMs have had zoning issues with antennas, but lately the Fed is stepping in to minimize that.

Any big energy setup is likely to have RFI issues, but most can be cured by a dedicated HAM.
A bit of knowledge of shielding and filtering may contain it. The gen spark plug may be shielded,
just like aircraft or mil gens. I did as much on my V8. An MPPT controller is a DC-DC converter,
a shielded box with input and output filters will contain the noise. Do not use a PWM controller,
because the switching current extends out to the panels which then become antennas. Also do
not use micro inverters or optimizers, which would require shielding/filtering at every panel.

I did not expect the military to give you fuel, but they probably have communication services. I
said BURY the propane tank so it is not visible and takes no lawn.

You have not answered the question about how power is consumed or if you can reduce it. You
do not find room for a generator setup, and do not have space or $ for a sufficiently large off grid
panel/battery system, so you cannot solve your problem until you at least move.
good luck,
Bruce Roe

[Ampster]

...... Bruce Roe K9MQG since 1958

1958, that is when I was studying for the Morse Code portion of the test. Got distracted by high school and never took the test. My cousin did and his call sign was WA6.....We did get a tour of Don Wallace's shack (W6AM). He lived nearby and my mother knew his daughter. What a set up.

[bcroe]

1958, that is when I was studying for the Morse Code portion of the test. Got distracted by high school and never took the test. My cousin did and his call sign was WA6.....We did get a tour of Don Wallace's shack (W6AM). He lived nearby and my mother knew his daughter. What a set up.

A lot of war surplus around then, some still in my attic. I could never do much with the code, but upgraded
to Extra when it was dropped a dozen years ago. Bruce