NJ newbie here! Saying hello!

[JSchnee21]

Yeah, my sales experience was a little different (by my choice). I knew what I wanted so I did most of it on the phone and via email. But, yes, the folks that come to measure and install are pretty laid back. Tim DeSevo was my sales rep. Very responsive, flexible, easy to talk to, and full of information. GPE's partner company replaced my roof at the same time which I was able to bundle as site prep as part of my install and rebate.

Some things to think about:

1) Solar Edge, I assume? GPE doesn't recommend Enphase. They provide 3rd party service to a lot of solar systems in NJ whose installers have gone out of business. Needless to say they replace a lot of the older Enphase Micros.

2) JCPL seems pretty flexible/easy going with their interconnect agreement. I had no issues with my 12.2kW array. I assume you're up around 18kW depending on your panel Wattage. You'll definitely need a line side tap for that kind of power. No worries, GPE's electrical sub will take care of this.

3) When considering different panel options, particularly for a roof mount, take some time to look up the panels on the web and see what they look like. Solar cell color / appearance, back sheet color, frame color, etc. These options will vary depending on the panel MFG, model, and type (e.g residential vs. commercial, etc.). Given your driving selection, i would expect that you'll want the system to look nice on the roof of your home. For example, commodity 72-cell, commercial style panels with silver frames (which GPE often leads with because they are cheaper) won't look as nice as something from LG or Panasonic with black frames. While black back sheets look nice, it does impact productivity as the panels run quite a bit warmer. Of course you will pay more for aesthetics and efficiency (Watts / square meter).

4) I strongly recommend getting the Solar Edge Consumption monitoring module while you are at it. It's nice to see your real time and historic consumption and production together in the app / website.

5) In NJ you will also need a dedicated meter for SREC credits (in addition to a bi-directional PoCo meter). Mine is stand alone. But Solar Edge sells a version of their inverters with a "revenue grade" meter inside. They cost about a hundred dollars more, but might save the need for the second (SREC) meter (not sure). Would make for a cleaner install and simplify/lower install cost.

6) Unless the vendor can get one of the new SolarEdge HD inverters with Wifi (not sure they are released yet) you'll want to run Ethernet to the inverter. Historically only Zigbee, Cellular, and Ethernet were options. Of these Cellular is too slow and limits data detail. Some say Zigbee is unreliable. Others find it okay. Ethernet is best.

7) Do you have 240V power -- aka 120V Split Phase like 400amp or so? Given the size of your array you're probably looking at two inverters. Either two 7600W or two 10000W

https://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/se-hd-wave-single-phase-inverter-datasheet-na.pdf

Note that the newer HD version inverters are more prone to clipping that the older A-series (which I have). So depending on your panel layout, number of roof faces, angle, and orientation, you may want to consider 2x10k for example, if you're array is significantly over 15kW.

[bcroe]

I just had the first company come by GPE. Really nice guy. Dude came in on a
murdered-out Dodge Challenger.... not what I was expecting for a solar guy.
Really good guy. He did his sales thing and estimated 52 panels all roof mounted. I have another estimate
later today. He said there's no point to build a structure. It will just add cost.

Roof mount is certainly the quick and easy way to build it. But unless you are writing off snow season
production, there are some advantages to ground mount. You will not be able to tilt up roof mounted
panels for the low winter sun, or for better snow rejection. And cleaning them is usually impractical. I
have a list of 44 advantages of ground mounts. Bruce Roe

[flowing]

About the aesthetics. I choose not to use the front roof. My home has a really nice look and didnt want to affect it. So they would do the back of the roof and one side near my driveway.

I looks like GPE will use Panasonic panels with SolarEdge 7600 just like you mentioned. You also hit the size 17-18kW.

I think I want them to do an actual walk on the roof estimate. I feel that this estimate is a little too optimistic.

Once I make a little progress I will check the options you mentioned on the reporting. My home has a 200a panel.


s1.JPGs2.JPG JSchnee21

[JSchnee21]

Very nice. I have the Panasonic 330W's myself (37). My roof is tiny so I went with a very high efficiency panel to get the maximum DC kW. I'm surprised they gave you a price right away. Though $3.23/W seems a little high. I paid approx $3.25/Watt myself in Spring of 2017. Compare with a few other quotes / EnergySage and see if you can knock them down a bit.

The Panasonic's have a nice 25yr warranty (when panel serial numbers are registered with Panasonic). Be sure to upgrade the SolarEdge warranty to 25yrs (GPE probably added this by default). Panasonic has newer 335W and 340W panels now, but these will be more per W. The LG Neon R's are also very nice. But these are a lot more. LG Neon2 is pretty good as well, slightly less than Panasonic.

na.panasonic.com/us/energy-solutions/solar/hit-series

https://www.lg.com/us/business/solar-panel/discover/lg-neonr

https://www.lg.com/us/business/solar-panel/discover/lg-neon2

I went with a 401K loan. Yeah, Yeah, everyone says not to do it. But I save aggressively for retirement so borrowing ~$50K from myself didn't really make a dent. But I'd rather borrow the money from myself, and it forces me to pay it back within 5yrs

I do feel like my system "under performs" a bit (maybe it was just my wishful thinking). That is to say, I had hoped to offset 100% but only ended up with ~85%. But I think this is mostly to do with my roofs poor pitch (20%), lots of trees, and it's short wide profile (significant effect as the sun moves across the sky). Macaddict's system in comparison seems to over produce from what I would have expected. So go figure. I think I would have done a bit better if I could have mounted my panels vertical (portrait) as well instead of landscape.

So I guess what I would say, is that if you have the roof space, squeezing in a couple extra panels might be worthwhile. Having the vendors actually measure is definitely a good call. From Google Maps, at least for my roof, it looked like they could fit more than reality.

[J.P.M.]

About the aesthetics. I choose not to use the front roof. My home has a really nice look and didnt want to affect it. So they would do the back of the roof and one side near my driveway.

I looks like GPE will use Panasonic panels with SolarEdge 7600 just like you mentioned. You also hit the size 17-18kW.

I think I want them to do an actual walk on the roof estimate. I feel that this estimate is a little too optimistic.

Once I make a little progress I will check the options you mentioned on the reporting. My home has a 200a panel.


s1.JPGs2.JPG JSchnee21

Without discussing the merits of borrowing/not borrowing, how secure or accurate is that "estimated" SREC amount ? knock that in half or so and it looks like you're losing money.

[JSchnee21]

Demand for SREC's is volatile and not guaranteed. In NJ as solar production has ramped faster than demand, the legislators have had to continually pass new legislation to accelerate demand to keep the prices up. While not 100% accurate, you can think of SREC's like "Cap and Trade." Legislation requires generators to be an increasing percentage "Green" each year. They need to buy the credits to offset dirty generation sources.

Last year there were some additional legislation changes which still haven't fully played out yet. Energy costs in NJ are low ($0.11 to $0.14 per kWh residential)and have actually slightly decreased in the 12 years I've lived here. Without SREC's the break even time horizon for solar is very long -- particularly with a purchase price > $3 / W.

That said, for the past several years, SREC's have been running around $200+ / MWh. Of course past performance is not a guarantee of future performance. So for a system that generates 20MWh / yr, that would be $4000 or more per year IFF things remain more or less the same.

Historical data here

https://www.flettexchange.com/markets/new-jersey/spot-data

If the OP can get a solar loan for 3.9% I'd say that's a pretty good deal. Paying a large chunk of it (bonus time) with cash would be better. Knocking down the price to $2.75 per Watt (not even sure if that is possible in NJ due to labor costs) would be outstanding.

One other important caveat to note for the OP:

While in theory homeowner owned solar (not leases, nor TPO's, nor PPA's) should increase the value of your home since it is a capital investment which lowers ongoing operating costs.. In practice, this is not really the case. Most people don't understand solar and this includes most real estate adjusters and lenders. It sounds like you love your home and plan to be there for the long haul. But if not, don't expect to recoup any of your investment when it comes time to sell your house. In fact, some buyers may be turned off. This is mostly due to misunderstandings about how solar works and the bad press that SunRun and others get. Even if you tell them you own it, they may not understand or trust you. A lot of people think they "own" their solar leases, too.
There are also concerns about long term maintenance and reliability, holes in your roof, and (largely unfounded) concerns about fire and firefighter response.

All that said, between your electricity offset and SREC's (assuming prices stay more or less the same) you should be able to break even in about 7 or 8 years. So assuming you plan to live in your home for more than 8 years, you should come out ahead. But, solar won't make you rich.

[flowing]

Thank you all for the responses. I agree. These are the sales people estimates. They are not to be taken too serious.

I do plan to stay in my home. I would want to pay 10k up front to knock it down a bit.

Looking at Google's solar estimate mine seems a bit optimistic.

Do you guys think it would be best for them to walk the roof and really check to see panel fitting. Then try to negotiate the price down a bit.

Google's take on my property:

SmartSelect_20190216-093522_Chrome.jpg

[JSchnee21]

Your loan numbers look legit, but stretching it out over 10yrs (versus 5) is costing you an extra $6K in interest. You would do better to be cash flow neutral (or slightly negative) and be paid off in 5 yrs. Check with you're tax accountant, but a low interest home equity or HELOC loan might allow you to deduct the interest from your taxes. Though, I think, thanks to Trump's new tax plan, this is capped at $10k in interested deductions per year nowadays which is probably already spoken for by your mortgage.

This is one of the reasons I went with a 401k loan. All of the interest I paid (5% or so) is just an accelerated investment in my own retirement (yes, it is taxed twice (going in and coming out) -- but this is better than taxed once and given away to someone else). I've read all of the financial arguments against doing this and none of them really carry any weight. The only "real" concern is the risk of default if you lose your job. Well, that happened to me (got laid off 5 years ago), but Fidelity just let me keep making payments as if I was still employed. Worse case would have been a hardship withdrawal and 10% tax penalty. But IMHO this is a much better choice than defaulting on a real loan from a bank or bankruptcy -- both of which would negatively impact your credit.

But, to each his own.

[flowing]

Thanks for the insight. I will inquire on a 5y option and see if I can put down more. This is requiring a lot of math 😊

[J.P.M.]

Demand for SREC's is volatile and not guaranteed. In NJ as solar production has ramped faster than demand, the legislators have had to continually pass new legislation to accelerate demand to keep the prices up. While not 100% accurate, you can think of SREC's like "Cap and Trade." Legislation requires generators to be an increasing percentage "Green" each year. They need to buy the credits to offset dirty generation sources.

Last year there were some additional legislation changes which still haven't fully played out yet. Energy costs in NJ are low ($0.11 to $0.14 per kWh residential)and have actually slightly decreased in the 12 years I've lived here. Without SREC's the break even time horizon for solar is very long -- particularly with a purchase price > $3 / W.

That said, for the past several years, SREC's have been running around $200+ / MWh. Of course past performance is not a guarantee of future performance. So for a system that generates 20MWh / yr, that would be $4000 or more per year IFF things remain more or less the same.

Historical data here

https://www.flettexchange.com/markets/new-jersey/spot-data

If the OP can get a solar loan for 3.9% I'd say that's a pretty good deal. Paying a large chunk of it (bonus time) with cash would be better. Knocking down the price to $2.75 per Watt (not even sure if that is possible in NJ due to labor costs) would be outstanding.

One other important caveat to note for the OP:

While in theory homeowner owned solar (not leases, nor TPO's, nor PPA's) should increase the value of your home since it is a capital investment which lowers ongoing operating costs.. In practice, this is not really the case. Most people don't understand solar and this includes most real estate adjusters and lenders. It sounds like you love your home and plan to be there for the long haul. But if not, don't expect to recoup any of your investment when it comes time to sell your house. In fact, some buyers may be turned off. This is mostly due to misunderstandings about how solar works and the bad press that SunRun and others get. Even if you tell them you own it, they may not understand or trust you. A lot of people think they "own" their solar leases, too.
There are also concerns about long term maintenance and reliability, holes in your roof, and (largely unfounded) concerns about fire and firefighter response.

All that said, between your electricity offset and SREC's (assuming prices stay more or less the same) you should be able to break even in about 7 or 8 years. So assuming you plan to live in your home for more than 8 years, you should come out ahead. But, solar won't make you rich.

IMO, well stated, particularly the caveats about SREC volatility and effects PV may/may not have on home resale value or salability.

Seems to me those with money to make by overstating the goods and understating to the point of misrepresenting possible pitfalls and drawbacks are all to common. That $4K/yr. in SRECs looks particularly unreliable or at least uncertain and/or overly optimistic for use in long term planning. I'd knock that in half and see what it does to time to breakeven. If I went ahead w/ the project anyway and it turned out I was too pessimistic, I'd be pleasantly surprised rather than unpleasantly disappointed, particularly if I didn't plan on moving.

[Ampster]

....
..

Note that the newer HD version inverters are more prone to clipping that the older A-series (which I have). So depending on your panel layout, number of roof faces, angle, and orientation, you may want to consider 2x10k for example, if you're array is significantly over 15kW.

I don't think the HD Wave inverters are more prone to clipping. I think what is happening is the design of the inverter allows a higher DC to AC ratio so more systems are being designed with higher ratios, perhaps because of economics or other factors. The result is more people are seeing clipping with HD Wave inverters. I have two systems, both with Solaredge HD Wave inverters and the one with a 1.5 to 1 DC to AC ratio shows clipping. The other one has a DC to AC ratio of less than 1 to 1 and shows no clipping.

[Ampster]

Roof mount is certainly the quick and easy way to build it. But unless you are writing off snow season
production, there are some advantages to ground mount. You will not be able to tilt up roof mounted
panels for the low winter sun, or for better snow rejection. And cleaning them is usually impractical. I
have a list of 44 advantages of ground mounts. Bruce Roe

I agree based on the original posters desire to do a driveway cantilever design.
I have seen some very attractive driveway pergola designs that could enhance the value of a home. The problem that the original poster ran into is an installer whose expertise was limited to roof mount. If I was in that situation, and had the resources to spend on the aesthetics I would have a structure designed and engineered for solar panels. I would have the structure built by someone who has that expertise. I would
coordinate that design with an installer. There could be money saved on the installation portion because the installer would not have any roof leak warranty issues and the engineering work would already be done. I would also rationalize the structure as a value enhancing investment just like new landscaping, windows or many of the myriad other changes we make to our homes.

This is easy enough more me to say because I have be in the construction and real estate related industry for 40 years. I have also added improvements to my homes based on function, utility or aesthetics.

[bcroe]

This is easy enough more me to say because I have be in the construction and real estate related industry
for 40 years. I have also added improvements to my homes based on function, utility or aesthetics.

Certainly building an array (in snow country) with easy summer/winter tilt change will take more resources.
Advantages here include far less snow removal efforts and improved sun angle production. Low maintenance
is a big deal to me, going out to change a few bolts in fall/spring sure beats pushing mountains of snow all
winter long. Just writing off winter production is almost certain with a roof mount, guessing some 20% of
system production. Bruce Roe

Sn4iE2.JPG

[flowing]

Wow how big is that?

[bcroe]

Wow how big is that?

That is 2 of my 3KW strings, 12 each 250W panels. I could have set it straight up, but decided to try this
for a little more production. Another array, just outside the pic, has inches of snow on it. Bruce Roe