Hello from Arizona

[aan]

Hello, I live in Phoenix area. I was thinking about solar for a while, but my roof still had some good life in it, so I was waiting until I have to replace the roof. I've installed a solar water heater when my flat roof was done. This year APS got new plans approved, big jump in rates, on-peak hours moved to 3-8pm and existing plans will be converted to the new ones by May. So I decided it is time to replace the roof and instal solar panels.


I've already got a few quotes and decided to go ahead with this one:

(40) ‐ Hanwha Q CELLS Q.Peak G4.1 305
(02) ‐ SolarEdge SE7600H‐US

$33,530.00

I got quotes for SunPower panels but they are too expensive. SolarCity proposed LG panels but I see they don't have a good reputation. Some quoted me Trina and some thin film Solar Frontier. Some installers install Enphase micro-inverter systems only, I don't like the idea to have electronics under Arizona sun. Prices were all over from $2.7 to $4+ per Watt.


My roof's direction is south-south-west but I have a limited space on this side (18-20 panels max) and some shading on west side. So I decided to put panels on my north-north-east side. PVWatts tells me they will produce about the same as on the south side in summer and about half in winter.

Also I am thinking to add a battery so the system can still work when grid is down and use power from the battery during on-peak hours. I don't expect, at least at this point, more than a couple of hours from the battery. I am thinking to add Tesla batteries (1-2) when they become available. The installer proposed to install StorEdge inverters (I guess SE7600A) instead of SE7600H for the same price. Is that a good idea? I've read SE7600H could be upgraded to support batteries, the installer says they will replace it completely if I wanted to upgrade later.

Do I need something else to support batteries I can install as part of this project? I am also thinking to add a generator transfer switch just in case.

What part of the rood replacement can I claim for Solar tax rebate? I am replacing clay tile with concrete tile so the solar panels can be installed. Installers don't want to install anything on clay tiles.


P.S. I've read the "Solar Power for Your Home" book, honestly, did not give me any new information.

P.P.S. Lets not discuss cost effectiveness, I keep it in mind, but there are other considerations too.

[J.P.M.]

P.P.S. Lets not discuss cost effectiveness, I keep it in mind, but there are other considerations too.

And, in your opinion, what might some of those other considerations be ?

Hope your water heater is not horizontal on a horizontal roof.

If the tile roof has some good life left in it and is serviceable, I'd not expect the replacement cost to be tax credit eligible. Check with your accountant for verification on that one.

If by clay tile you mean barrel or circular cross section tiles of the type that's usually orange and sometimes called mission tiles, there are about 20 or so roofs in my HOA with those clay tiles and solar arrays on top of them. Happens all the time. Installation just takes a bit more care. I'd question the vendor on that one. If it's claimed the roof material needs to change because of some notion that PV cannot be easily installed on clay tile, and that's the justification for the new roof, or for some tax credit, I'd get a second opinion on that from the IRS.

I'd also think if you look around, you'll see arrays on/over mission tile. There are about a half dozen or so such arrangements within sight of my kitchen window. Vendors don't like working on/over mission tile as much as working on a comp. shingle roof, but now that POCO's, including APS, are gutting net metering and removing a lot of its economic advantages, I'd think vendors would be a bit less picky about jobs they don't want to bid on.

SolarCity has a bad reputation. LG has a pretty good reputation, at least around here. Don't know which antecedent your use of "they" was referring to.

As long as your mind is set and you don't need to be confused or bothered discussing economic realities, cost effectiveness is off the table.

Big system. Big usage ? Glad to see you're conservation minded as well as seemingly more informed than the average bear.

Enjoy spending your assets as well as feeding on the battery hype.

[aan]

And, in your opinion, what might some of those other considerations be ?

Sometimes we just buy toys without expecting them to pay off for themselves.
I just like to have flexibility and ability to have power when grid is down, which does not happen here so often or for more than a few hours.

Hope your water heater is not horizontal on a horizontal roof.

No, the water heater is properly raised and facing the direction required by the code (strictly south). I don't have to turn electric heating on most of the year, mostly in winter when we have a couple of cloudy days, then I turn electric heating on for a few hours.

If by clay tile you mean barrel or circular cross section tiles of the type that's usually orange and sometimes called mission tiles, there are about 20 or so roofs in my HOA with those clay tiles and solar arrays on top of them. Happens all the time. Installation just takes a bit more care. I'd question the vendor on that one."

Yes, I guess this is the tile, made of clay and very easy to break. Most installers I talked to just don't work on clay tile. Some propose to remove tiles and put asphalt shingles under the panels. I see a few of those around. Looks horrible.

The roof is near the end of life, not leaking yet, may last for a few years. I would have to replace it to cement tile anyway. The tile I have is not made anymore and it is very expensive just to do RnR, not mentioning replacing the tile. My neighborhood have lots of clay tile roofs replaced with cement tiles.

SolarCity has a bad reputation. LG has a pretty good reputation, at least around here. Don't know which antecedent your use of "they" was referring to.

I meant SolarCity and they are the only one who offered LG.

Big system. Big usage ? Glad to see you're conservation minded as well as seemingly more informed than the average bear.

2 3ton A/Cs. It is getting really hot here.

My concerns about placing panels on the north side as well as the right choice for the invertor. If I get SE7600A for the same price as SE7600H, what do I loose?

[J.P.M.]

Once you find out more about batteries, their plusses, and the minuses (that the peddlers don't seem to mention), you may come to understand and appreciate why the smart money that's also solar experienced often seems to be of the opinion that a fossil fuel powered generator is, for several reasons including, but not limited to the taboo subject of cost effectiveness, superior to PV for the infrequent outages you speak of.

Also, I'm not aware of any code that requires solar thermal devices to face strictly south as you write, so you probably know more than me in that regard.

To my experience, most installers would prefer to make life as easy as possible for themselves. Also to my experience, most professional and ethical installers try to give their customers what's best for those customers as the installer sees it. Get a new roof as you see fit, but I'd respectfully suggest you disabuse yourself of the idea that installing on mission tile is much more than a line item on a scope of work. Having watched installs on a lot of mission tile and also on a lot of tile, I'd suggest the time of install is about the same for either. Mission tile seems to need a bit more care and deliberate movement, but life's bitch sometimes.

And, FWIW, being the guy on my HOA ARC that reviews and recommends to the committee, and then monitors installation on all the solar installs in the HOA, seems to me that mission tile roofs do not increase price, and as I wrote, don't take any longer - just more care and often (but not always) some tied down and possibly foam backed plywood for walking surfaces.

Lastly, replacing tiles under an array with comp. shingles only makes life a lot easier for the contractor. Otherwise, it helps no one and increases the likelihood of problems for the homeowner down the road. The potential problems have little to do with aesthetics, at least not initially.

I'm mostly ignorant of the relative merits/drawbacks between the inverters you write of. Others around here are more knowledgeable. Perhaps they will come along and offer comment.

LG is pretty common around here, available from many quality vendors, and mostly competitive in terms of price and good quality . Don't know what circumstances would make LG less available in your market.

[aan]

Once you find out more about batteries, their plusses, and the minuses (that the peddlers don't seem to mention), you may come to understand and appreciate why the smart money that's also solar experienced often seems to be of the opinion that a fossil fuel powered generator is, for several reasons including, but not limited to the taboo subject of cost effectiveness, superior to PV for the infrequent outages you speak of.

I am aware of the batteries drawbacks. Including the cost. Generators have their drawbacks too. They don't start seamlessly when power goes down. While I like an idea to go off-grid, or to be off-grid ready, I do understand it is not feasible with current technologies. On the other hand it is nice on a sunny 120F day to run a/c while whole grid is down. Why do I need a generator when I have sun?

Just to close on the cost effectiveness topic - why people buy Tesla, BMW, Cadillacs, etc when simple much more cost effective Kia Rio can take you from point A to point B?

Also, I'm not aware of any code that requires solar thermal devices to face strictly south as you write, so you probably know more than me in that regard.

I am not sure if this was a code or some other requirement from APS or to get it certified for tax credit/rebates. But it definitely was not the simplest way to install the panel.

LG is pretty common around here, available from many quality vendors, and mostly competitive in terms of price and good quality . Don't know what circumstances would make LG less available in your market.

It is available here too. Just not the panel of choice for most installers I talked to. I probably could get it but the price would likely be higher. Is there any reason I should choose LG over QCells?