Solar Panels Mounted Vertical

[dauction]

Hello everyone..

My Set-up :

2 195 Watt Panels http://sunelec.com/index.php?main_pa...9e568aabec83ba

1 Sunforce 30 amp 12 volt controller (yep I now know that's a rookie mistake..I'l be investing in a MPPT this spring.)

1. PowerDrive 2000 convertor (actually happy with it..)

3 ..12 Volt Marine type ( 75ah or so each) ..(yep also realize another rookie move)

1 Breaker type box..with 2 15 amp breakers

The Solar Setups Purpose


Run the Dinning Room and Living Room .. Dinning room chandilier...9 lightbulbs! Biggest change went from 9 40 wats bulbs..360 watts to 9 ...4 watt bulbs


and for emergency blackouts..which we just had one that lasted 12 hours..the solar setup allowed us to watch tv for few hours before bed and my wife was able to have lights and hairdryer in the morning to get ready for work

Dining Room : 36 Watts x 5 hours = 180 Watts
Living Room TV , Lights and Misc.. 200 x 5hours = 1000 Watts

1200 Watts used per day..I was able to do that in the summer ..but not even close now in winter..

WHICH leads us to why I went to a Vertical Mount

I first installed the panels flat last spring on our Pergala that covers our deck..worked great until around OCT and the sun not as high in the sky , new shadows etc..

So after careful study the absolute best place was the South Facing SIDE of the house..The actual SIDE of the house not the roof..The problem with the Roof is two fold:

1. The Panels are not UL Listed so I wasnt going to put them up there anyway and secondly our house is a victorian style that has like 8 quadrants of roof ..8 small..sections of roof with no sections getting sun all day

but that South facing side of the House (2 1/2 stories high) the sun beats down on it all day long..even though angle is not "perfect" pretty good as is .

My QUESTION IS: can I use the standard Unirac rails and clamps to Mount Vertical on the House siding? As a temp setup they are mounted on 16 foot 2x4's.. but come spring obviously want a more professional mounting.

I do have proper wiring and conduit etc,,

The house was built in 1916 and has the plaster and slat walls..pretty much impossible to rewire without major renovation so used UL listed electrcal wiring "raceway/rails , 6 outlets and 2 switchs from the mud room , to the dinning room and into living room.. right along the baseboards ..blends right in actually looks nice.

I will likely add on to this system..double it next year..like to have a full 2000 watts a day keeping in mind draining batteries to 40-50%..


Not really worried about payback on it ..just like having the useful daily set-up and full day backups during any power outages and of course to deny Xcel Energy a whopping $20 a month or so




So that's what I have going ..really need some ideas for permanent vertical mounting


Yes the Panels will also rise 36 inches higher.. (they are also on sperate strings)

Another Fantastic postive for vertical mount..we had 8 inches o snow today here in Minnesota..Panels are perfectly clean !

[dauction]

BTw..I have read the forum (SolarPanelTalk) off and on for 6 months..Mike really enjoy your reading your post ..very informative and approach to being realist with newbies..

Russ also enjoy your post BUT.. Man you are one very depressing person..have you considered starting a another Solar Form.. You could call it .. Solar .."The depressing Reality" Or "Solar.Let me rip your stupid solar wet dream to shreds forum" :laugh:

just poking fun.... your way of teaching reality just uses a hammer

[mountain]

I like your approach.

I have installed many PV solar panels in alpine mountain locations, northern latitudes (western Canada), and the preferred orientation is always vertical or even slightly downward. Pointed dead-south. These panels typically power communication repeaters or environmental monitoring stations.

The reasons are :

1. The panels will remain clear of snow, ice, frost, dust & debris. This is of paramount for unattended & low maintenance installations.
2. Hail (golf-ball stuff)
3. Maximum ground reflection (typically snow or water), can radically increase solarization. Upwards orientation destroys ground-reflection benefit.

In summer, the extra hours more than makes up for the less than optimal angle of incidence. Plan for winter. Make sure your mounting brackets are designed to withstand sustained intense winds, & permanent material (not wood). I always use galvanized unistrut. It's cheap, easy to buy & lasts forever.

[dauction]

I like your approach.

I have installed many PV solar panels in alpine mountain locations, northern latitudes (western Canada), and the preferred orientation is always vertical or even slightly downward. Pointed dead-south. These panels typically power communication repeaters or environmental monitoring stations.

The reasons are :

1. The panels will remain clear of snow, ice, frost, dust & debris. This is of paramount for unattended & low maintenance installations.
2. Hail (golf-ball stuff)
3. Maximum ground reflection (typically snow or water), can radically increase solarization. Upwards orientation destroys ground-reflection benefit.

In summer, the extra hours more than makes up for the less than optimal angle of incidence. Plan for winter. Make sure your mounting brackets are designed to withstand sustained intense winds, & permanent material (not wood). I always use galvanized unistrut. It's cheap, easy to buy & lasts forever.

Thanks mountain appreciate that..nice to know I am on the right track going vertical.. (coming from someone with winter solar install experiance)


Just Bolt them on to the unistrut or do you recommend a special clamp of some sort?

http://img1.topfreebiz.com/o2010-8/cache/Uni-Strut-Steel-C-Channel-793659686.jpg

Very cool what you said about the sun reflecting off the snow..last week we also got a few inches of snow and happened to notice the batteries were completly charged early in the afternon..a few hours earlier than usual..I wondered if that was the reason why (because of the snow reflection) ... I suspect it has to be fresh snow as well as it seemed like 2 days later the "dirty snow" didnt seem to have the same effect ?


we just had major snowstorm today and expecting a full sunny day tomorrow and was making a mental note to check that exact thing..

[Mike90250]

I don't know what "raceway" wire is, and if it's qualified to use, as you are using it. You may want to check with a local electrical guy .

Enjoy that $500 of solar every month as you stick it to the "man".

Taking your batteries to 50% daily, will really hurt their life. While they can go that deep, they are happier with shallower discharges.

And I concur with the vertical mounting for winter, if you get any reflections, they help a lot. MPPT can help in the winter too, as your panels have a couple extra volts from the cold.

[russ]

@ Duraction - I even like solar, believe it or not. I also like what is practical and economic. Most people don't have loads of money to waste and in many situations people in the solar field encourage the newbie to pour money down a rat hole.

It is a bit depressing that solar thermal prices have remained so high. The panels are the opposite of solar PV in that they are low tech and nothing new. Of course someone is always tweaking their panel for a small % of additional recovery but that is really meaningless.

I really like Mountain's solar thermal air heater - that I hope to build and install here.

[mountain]

I don't know what "raceway" wire is, and if it's qualified to use, as you are using it. You may want to check with a local electrical guy .

Raceway wire, would imply wire intended to be pulled in a raceway, such as RW90 XLPE.

Within the electrical trade (Canada), conduit is becoming a disused term (officially), replaced with raceway. Conduit implies metal tubing (EMT) which has a specified ampacity for return fault-current path, and electricians must take care to ensure the electrical integrity of the entire return fault-current path (no other ground-bond required).
These days non-metalic tubing is commonly used as raceway, PVC tubing & non-metalic liquid-tight. This may still be referred informally as conduit (especially by suppliers), but it is not conductive, and a separate ground-bond wire must always be pulled. Better & safer.

[dauction]

I don't know what "raceway" wire is, and if it's qualified to use, as you are using it. You may want to check with a local electrical guy .

Enjoy that $500 of solar every month as you stick it to the "man".

Taking your batteries to 50% daily, will really hurt their life. While they can go that deep, they are happier with shallower discharges.

And I concur with the vertical mounting for winter, if you get any reflections, they help a lot. MPPT can help in the winter too, as your panels have a couple extra volts from the cold.

Morning Mike..not sure what you mean with that

"$500 a month solar"

and trying to [quotestick it to the man[/quote]..thought I made that clear with when I said

Not really worried about payback on it ..just like having the useful daily set-up and full day backups during any power outages and of course to deny Xcel Energy a whopping $20 a month or so

If not sending the "Man" $20 a month is sticking it to him..then cant wait to double on that

BTW..Panels, batteries, controller, power drive controller, conduit and wiring less than $1500.. I'd spend almost that on a new laptop every 2-3 years... I have friends that spend $10,000 just to catch a 5 pound fish.. Solar as I am doing it is a hobby that is actually contributing to some of my electrical needs..When Xcel energy lost power a few weeks back and I was able to give the wife enough juice to have lights and run her hairdryer in the Morning ...that pretty makes it worthwhile..when the neighbor stopped me in the driveway and said with that envious look "I seen you had the lights on the other night during the power outage" Yeah..well worth it


Anyway.. that "Raceway" is essentially Fancy Conduit for indoor use where running wiring through the walls is not practical..metal and PVC (I had to use the Metal)

Mountain I started using the PVC style of raceway but that did not pass code..had to use the metal style(I went to City Hall and spoke with the electrical inspector).

I also asked the City what I would need from them If I wanted to add 6 panels to the roof (If I ever go that route). said I was the first person they ever had installing roof panels ..in a City of 65,000 ! They didn't care about any Load and I didn't need any inspection for that part..just the wiring

I'll uploaded some better photos today of the inside..wiring and how I installed the raceway conduit..

Mike running the Batteries to 50% ..not a big deal considering I went the usual newbie junk cheap batteries route starting off..

I'm still cheap though ..next time buying batteries don't really see the point in spending $700 on 2 Surrette S-460, 6 volt 350 Ah when I can get 440Ah on the Sam's club golf car for $300..even if they only last half the cycles..still less expensive. Almost every review I have ever read from people using the less expensive Sam's Club 6 volts they are happy with performance and longevity .


Have a question on indirect benefits of placing Solar Panels on the side of the House...Our Living room is on that side and gets hotter than heck in the summer...If that wall was covered in Panels that would mean less heat being absorbed into that side of the house and less need to run the central air ? Could actually be some substantial savings if thats the case...


russ I am going search for mountains thermal heating topics ...thinking that side of the house might also be a good place to add solar heating. (Also added a corn/pellet stove on the front enclosed porch....nice ambiance..nice to sit out there in the winter with the fire going ..I can heat the whole house with it (except the basement of course) when the outside is 25 degrees or so....and be competitive with Natural Gas ..pellets are $3.20 40 lbs this year.. but today it's 5 below and would cost twice as much and harder on the stove running it on high.


Run the Cars on E85 ethanol and just added late summer a 48volt Electric Lawn Mower (yep will be charging it up with the panels).. dabble in all kinds of alternatives ..

[dauction]

Hello guys/gals

well been busy this spring so just getting ready to add on to the system and a could use some help.

I want to add 4 more of similar panels ..195/200 watt ..Total 6 Panels at max 60 amps or so

.... .. wiring right now ( 2 panels) I have each panel wired separately (so shadows on one wont affect other panel) ..# 12 awg running 30 feet to combiner.. combiner to controller 1 foot using #10 awg ..and controller to battery looks like around #6..and battery to inverter looks like #4

For starters should I continue wiring the Panels to the Combiner 30ft same manner..and using #12 ...OR should I be connecting each panel in parallel to each other and then move the combiner outside next to the panels.. and then run one fat (well 2 wires) wire to 30ft to the controller..


The Part I am having an issue understanding is ..if the panels are putting out 60 amps I dont even see that as a possiblity on the wiring chart for 12volt at 30 feet http://www.windsun.com/Hardware/Wire_Table.htm and if I could the wire would cost a small fortune

1. Is it legal/ok to have the combiner 30 feet from panels the way I have it set up now..
2. Can I move the combiner 5 feet from panels ..umm if I do that I have to go with the 1 fat wire right?

3. I know you are going to say go 24 volt.. before we look at the that ..what are my wiring options for 12 volt with 6-10 20 watt panels..upto around 110 amps at peak

Did a take I take a turn inot left field and missing something..probably the most like

The set up works great for the 2 panels I have set up now..I wont go past 10 200 watt panels..just double checking with you experts before I head off into the wrong direction

[dauction]

If I go 24 Volt my first 2 panels at 17.20 Vmp 10 amp peak something like that ..so I can simply run these in series and that gets me my 24volt and roughly 5 amps peak..correct?

Then can I wire "regular" 24 Volt Panels to these ? or simply connect that first "set" of panels to the combiner as 1 panel 24v..along with adding standard 24 volt panels to the combiner even though the the true volts will be slightly different between the 'made" 24 volt panel and a "real" 24 v panels..then I cna run a smaller gauge wire from the panels/combiner to the controller 30 feet away ..

So the 6 panels total amps will be around 30-35 amps at peak ..30 feet I need to use a #6 gauge is that about right?

DUH.. so if I insisted on going 12 volt I could also just split those 60 amps in half by setting up 2 arrays ..(2 combiners) of 3 12v panels !

Still a bit confused on combiners..does it have to be next to the panels? Or is it just for the simplicity of not needing to run as many wires ?

[Mike90250]

Well, there is a lot to cover.

1) MPPT controllers, large ones can take up to 140VDC from the panels. If you wire the panels in SERIES, the volts add up, and the amps are limited to the lowest rated panel.

You must calculate the the cold weather start-up voltage, at dawn, when the PV array is cold, it can put out more voltage, than when it is hot. That cold voltage, can fry your controller if you do the math wrong. It might take 3 years, and then you have a super frosty, clear morning, and your panels pump 183v into your 150V controller. Whoops.

2) MPPT controllers rate the output in AMPS. Say you have a 60amp controller, it can only feed 60 amps to the batteries, 60A @ 12v, 24v or 48v

3) MPPT controllers magically convert an arrays 137VDC @ 5amps (700W), to 14V @ 49A. If you place the contoller near the battery, you only need a foot or two of expensive wire.


Of course, you have to match, plan and scheme to get everything balanced right so you don't fry any of the expensive parts, or yourself !

[dauction]

Thanks Mike thats helpful but look at the first issue:

It appears most people have their combiner (as well as controller) next to the Solar panels..I have my Solar Panel Combiner 30 feet away..each panel uses 30 feet of #12 wire to the combiner.. I built this combiner last year .. http://www.freesunpower.com/project1.php .

See how he has a short run of of 8 wires (4 panels) to the combiner (from solar panels) and then using 2 expensive thick gauge wire from the combiner to the controller.. (maybe 30 feet)

I have that reversed. I have 4 (2 panels) 30 feet of wires from solar panels to combiner..then a short run of 2 expensive thick gauge wire from the combiner to the controller) ..2 feet

For starters is that "ok" the way I have it

[Sunking]

Conduit implies metal tubing (EMT) which has a specified ampacity for return fault-current path, and electricians must take care to ensure the electrical integrity of the entire return fault-current path (no other ground-bond required).
These days non-metalic tubing is commonly used as raceway, PVC tubing & non-metalic liquid-tight. This may still be referred informally as conduit (especially by suppliers), but it is not conductive, and a separate ground-bond wire must always be pulled. Better & safer.

That is why you run an EGC, so you do not have to use conduit as a fault path. KISS it.

[Sunking]

It appears most people have their combiner next to the Solar panels..I have my Solar Panel Combiner 30 feet away..each panel uses 30 feet of #12 wire to the combiner..

That doesn't make it right, just means they are ignorant of facts. Use a MPPT controller wiring your panels in series for higher voltage means much less current, lower power losses, smaller less expensive wire, not as much wire, and in some cases eliminate the combiner. Which all means much lower cost and higher efficiency.

[dauction]

That doesn't make it right, just means they are ignorant of facts. Use a MPPT controller wiring your panels in series for higher voltage means much less current, lower power losses, smaller less expensive wire, not as much wire, and in some cases eliminate the combiner. Which all means much lower cost and higher efficiency.

Ok thanks Sunkin..so I am fine the way I have it ..if I want to stay 12 volt I can simply proceed like I have been.

But you are recommending going to 24 volt ..I can get rid of the combiner.. BUT the Combiner does have it's advantages in that each panel is on it's own circuit.. I can flip circuit breaker and check each panel without climbing ladders etc..umm

OK appreciate the feedback..I'll give it some more thought..

If I go 24 volt ..perfectly fine to use the two 12v panels (17. something) I already have ..just run them in series..should they be separate when I add 24v panels? Or fine to run them all together ?

I'll go search / read up a bit more

Thanks