Sales Engineer from Boulder, CO

[MarineLiner]

Give attention to

ha ha ha, he he he,

no, no, no, i just want to bring us to, what i think, need attention.

We can read many posts asking about enphase, so it is time to reply it.

[russ]

I read on another blog (CR4) a post by someone referring to himself as a protection engineer.

I asked if he designed condums but he didn't seem to think it was funny.

He worked at commissioning electrical systems in India. He said he was not a 'fire protection engineer' - hadn't heard of that type either.

If Walt doesn't have an engineering degree he should refer to himself as a salesman.

[trbizwiz]

Here is an enphase question. I have a company offering to sell me 9 Yingli 230 watt panels with 9 enphase m190 inverters. I did some quick math and it seems the peak out put of the panels 230 watts X 9= 2070, while the peak output of the inverters 190 X 9= 1710 watts , seems the 190's waste 360 potential watts. While the M210's have a peak output of 1890 watts.
It seems going with the 190's you nearly waste the out put of a whole panel over the array of 9 panels. The recommended input power for the 190 is 230 and the 210 is 240. the min start up volts for the 190 is 28V and for the 210 is 31 volts.
Why would they spec a 190 watt out put to need 230 input watts, and a 210 out put to need 240. is this because if efficiencies?
If the Yingli's have enough voltage to be in the start up range should I just go ahead with the 210's?
I plan to ground mount these on 3 panel array's with a custom built tracking system to keep them pointed at the sun. That should extend somewhat my sun hours and give me full start up voltage a little earlier and later in the day.

[Mike90250]

panels, warm in the sun, only give 80% of the sticker wattage, tested under factory conditions (like car mileage stickers), so you 230W panels, will only put out 184w at perfect aim, for 10 min, at high solar noon, and then will drop off. Smaller panels will give you even less power.

[trbizwiz]

So I'll never get anything approaching 210 watts out of these 230 watt panels anyway. I guess the 190's do make more sense. I just did not want to take a sales man's word for it and regret it later

[Mike90250]

So I'll never get anything approaching 210 watts out of these 230 watt panels anyway. I guess the 190's do make more sense. I just did not want to take a sales man's word for it and regret it later

190's will generally give you 152W, as long as you are doing the work, put the larger ones in if you can afford them.

[trbizwiz]

190's will generally give you 152W, as long as you are doing the work, put the larger ones in if you can afford them.

Best I can tell there is about $20 difference in the 190's and the 210's. If there is more power to be had for the extra $180 it seems a cheap upgrade, but if you cant reach that power anyway it is a waste of money.
It is all a mute point if I cant get the system signed off by my electrician for grid tie status. He is trying to get in contact with Empire electric to find out what exactly they expect from him. They have not been very forth coming with returning his calls.
I have to have a system preapproval and get the system ordered by august 31 or I lose the grant money.

[Mike90250]

230W panels, will only put out 184w
190's will generally give you 152W

If it was mine, i'd spend the $180 in a heartbeat. the difference of what $180 will gain you in 20 years is huge.
Just don't wast the estra watts in cheap thin wire, keep losses under 1%, not the 5% household standard.

[Walt_Solartown]

Hello Russ - I'm fine to call myself a salesman. I've taken a good bit of training but as I do not have an engineering degree I don't want to mislead people. My previous career was 'QA Engineer'. I've installed several arrays but won't support my family on the roof alone - which is why I started selling them.

If you're interested in Enphase check out this installation recently completed - we put up 2 Sharp 224s, 2 Solon 220s, 2 Schott 220s, 2 Trina 230s and 2 Yingli 230s. The Yinglis weren't comissioned on the same day so their lifetime output is a bit skewed. I find the daily output most telling. http://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/p...stems/K7595568 - perhaps this will sway people toward one panel over another though it is not entirely scientific. It is what we did to understand some of the differences between panels.

[trbizwiz]

That's a great idea. Giving people the chance to see different panels in action in the same environment. I'll take a look myself.

[Mike90250]

......
If you're interested in Enphase check out this installation recently completed - we put up 2 Sharp 224s, 2 Solon 220s, 2 Schott 220s, 2 Trina 230s and 2 Yingli 230s. The Yinglis weren't comissioned on the same day so their lifetime output is a bit skewed. I find the daily output most telling. http://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/p...stems/K7595568 - perhaps this will sway people toward one panel over another though it is not entirely scientific. It is what we did to understand some of the differences between panels.

Very nice comparison between panels. I like being able to run the daily slider and see the power as the panels wake up. I'm amazed they all track so well (from what I can see).

[trbizwiz]

very interesting results

I guess this fully explains my other question I have been asking in other posts, about using the M190 on 230 watt panels. It appears, that 230 watt panels only output around 130 watts. So much for truth in advertising.
What sort of conditions would it take for those 230's to output anywhere near their posted wattage?
Even so it appears your monthly average will be in the 330 KWH range. That seems decent. That would off set my utility bill by $31. I can only imagine what that system could do if it produced peak wattage!!

Side note, I saw a show on planet green one time and the guy had an overhead panel mounted face down, then he had a solar reflector on the ground facing the inverted panel. He had a low tech sun tracking system that somehow used buckets of water to cause the reflector to track the sun and project the solar energy (light) onto the solar panel. He claimed it made the panel much more efficient. He demonstrated it by attaching a fan to the panel facing directly at the sun, then he inverted the panel facing the solar collector and the fan sounded and looked to run much more quickly. He gave percentages of how much more or less efficient either setup was, but I am terrible at remembering intricate statistics.

[Mike90250]

It appears, that 230 watt panels only output around 130 watts. So much for truth in advertising.
What sort of conditions would it take for those 230's to output anywhere near their posted wattage?

Hold the panels at 70F, use a calibrated 1 Sol flash tube. (about $80,000)
Flash the panels. They will output 230W!

Or live in Canada, at -30F, with reflection off snow, you will get 260W, or more.

Heat, haze and oblique sun angle are the enemy.

[russ]

The output per panel is as per standard conditions - the right way to do things.

It is up to the consumer (since they are assuming a minor engineering function) to understand how standard conditions relate to the real world.

Your 230 to 130 numbers are not correct - the numbers have been supplied by Mike previously.

The planet green thing shows someone's mixed up way of trying to be different and by that person's definition - better. Reminds me of an old song, 'wishing & hoping'!

[trbizwiz]

The output per panel is as per standard conditions - the right way to do things.

It is up to the consumer (since they are assuming a minor engineering function) to understand how standard conditions relate to the real world.

Your 230 to 130 numbers are not correct - the numbers have been supplied by Mike previously.

The planet green thing shows someone's mixed up way of trying to be different and by that person's definition - better. Reminds me of an old song, 'wishing & hoping'!

The 130 numbers are off of Walt's array as what it is producing right now using some 230 watt panels among other wattage rated panels in Colorado. Ironically all the panels regardless of rated wattage are very close in output, with the lowest rated panels producing the highest wattage. Since it was around noon mountain time when I saw those numbers, I have to assume that is peak for this time of year. So I am guessing mathematically Mike is correct, and I am guessing circumstantially Walt's enphase report is correct.
The Canadian snow theory seems to add credence to the planet green guys theory.
Please don't mistake my comments as argumentative. I am just really trying to make sense of everything.