Newbie seeking Solar Advice - Los Angeles/San Fernando Valley

[solardesire]

Greeting! I came across this forum while trying to learn about solar.

We recently bought an all-electric vehicle and our electricity usage has increased substantially, so we would like to consider installing a solar system for our house. Since we are newbie to solar, we hope to learn and seek advise. we had a couple of solar consultation, but the price seems high and we really have no idea whether the offered system is right or wrong for us, with so much information and claims it's really confusing.

Here are some background information.
- we want to own the system.
- we are serviced by LADWP. Los Angeles, San Fernando Valley. we get extra hot in summer and extra cold in winder and get hit hard by Santa Ana Wind.
- we estimate use of 1000kwh per month on the average. how do we translate the electricity usage to the required kwatt system we need? We had suggestion from 4~7kwatt systems?
- we have composite roof in decent condition.
- the south facing roof area is limited(has slight slope), have partial shading from neighbor's tree in a corner, also it's not in one continuous space(broken up into 3~4 smaller area.)
- we are seeking USA made panels because we were told it has best quality, was told sunpower offer best panels, solarworld, sunEdison also are good US panels? we also heard Suniva is great panels?
- but then we also heard none USA made panels such as LG and Trina also offer great panels? how do we decide which panel is the best choice?
- should I worry about degradation? sunpower claim almost no degradation versus other panels...?
- We heard microinvertor Enphase should be preferred, but then we heard that it's more cost effective to have single invertor with "optimizer" in panels(sunpower)? then somewhere we heard string invertor? what are they?
- We had friend who had said he had a 10kwatt solar world panels with Enphase microinverter installed with 3 inch rack averaging $2.5 per watt before rebate /incentive/taxbreak and $1.9 per watt after rebate/incentive/taxbreak. This was done sometime in 2014. The quote we are getting are all higher than $4 per watt.... I wonder how to find a real good quote?
- Technology changes, so what's great a year ago might not be so great now. how to make sure we make the right choice in 2015?

As you can see from above jumbo of random thoughts, we know a little bit to confuse ourselves instead of helping us making the right decision for us. so any advise to help us learn and to make right decision would be most appreciated. also if you know of anyone in our area that will be able to offer excellent deal for us, we would appreciate referrals.

Thanks again.

[solarix]

My 2 cents:
Solar panels are pretty much a commodity. All have 25 year warranties, they all last much longer than that. Very little difference in durability. Some brands like Sunpower will be significantly more efficient - but they cost a lot more (helpful if short on roof space though). Best value is the foreign brands, Canadian Solar, Trina, Q-Cells, Hyundai, etc. You are supporting American workers more when buying US brands but not better panels. Your choice.
In hot climates, I say that roof mounted electronics (microinverters) are a big reliability risk. If you have bad shading problems - microinverters (or optimizers) are helpful, but better is to find a place with no shade. String inverters are still the best value and best reliability and with the new multi-MPPT inputs are plenty efficient too. The other reason for going microinverter is if your building dept has implemented the Rapid Shutdown code rule yet that these system are good at.
The most cost effective size is usually about 90% of your yearly usage. go find PVWATTS online and punch in your numbers to find out pretty accurately how many KW of array you need. My guess for you is 1500kWh/kW yearly or 12000/1500*90% = ~7.2kW. If you have an EV then hey, go with a 7.7kW inverter which maxes out your 200A service and an 8 to 9kW array (if you have the room) and be good to go. California prices seem to be overpriced these days so good luck finding a good deal. Equipment prices are less than $1.25/watt these days so dealers are able to give good deals if you push them enough.

[J.P.M.]

Installed PV in So. CA can be had for about $3.50/nameplate Watt BEFORE federal tax credit or any local rebates. Maybe about 10% less or so for sharp negotiating, or mongrel equipment from "larry with a ladder" type installers. While not doubting anyone's veracity, I'd only remark that sometimes people get their pricing confused or something.

If people around here could indeed generally and easily purchase installed systems for 2.50/Watt before credits/rebates and own them, there would be a blizzard of installs around here. Maybe I'm missing something.

Sunpower is good stuff, but usually overpriced for what most folks need. The vaunted S.P "most efficient" hype refers to AREA efficiency - most output per m^2 of ft^2. That means a smaller footprint, but more per installed Watt or per square meter or sq. ft. At the bottom line where $$'s count, S.P. stuff is near and usually at the bottom in terms of cost efficiency.

Annual S.P. degradation is claimed to be less. For starters, it's a claim, not a proven fact. Solar hasn't been around long enough, nor is it easy to verify actual performance degradation. While not having data to refute the claim - and it may be true - even if true, it's not that much less than other quality equipment to justify the usual 15 - 25% up front premium over those other brands.

Most every equal (electrical) size array in the same location, orientation and service will produce about equal initial annual output, and do so for probably longer than you'll own it. I seriously doubt you'll want or be able to measure any difference from a S.P. array to other quality equipment. If space constrained, put the money you don't spend on S.P. vs. some other equipment into conservation measures. They're almost always more cost effective than any solar equipment you can buy at this time.

I'd suggest buying a book dealing with residential solar and energy conservation and after reading/studying, get quotes from reputable installers. Most bang for the buck is always better than low buck. The two are not the same.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

[max2k]

...If people around here could indeed generally and easily purchase installed systems for 2.50/Watt before credits/rebates and own them, there would be a blizzard of installs around here. Maybe I'm missing something.

You ain't .

[DanKegel]

Listen to JPM, he gives good advice.

Shop around. Don't pay much more than about $3.50/watt before rebates if you can help it.

If you have significant shading, consider solaredge inverter, it's halfway between a string and microinverters; it optimizes each panel individually so one shaded panel doesn't kill the whole string.

1000 kWh/month = 33 kWh/day
If you're aiming to cover 90% of your needs with solar, that's 30 kWh/day.
I get an average of 4.5 kWh per kW of panels per day in LA; if your site is similar, then you'd need 30/4.5 = 6.7 kW.

If you go with moderately priced 300 watt panels, that's about 22 panels.
Each is about 40" by 64".
Do you have that much room? If so, you don't need to pay the premium for more efficient panels.

Also, have you already looked at reducing your electricity use by e.g. switching incandescents to LEDs or replacing old inefficient appliances? Might reduce the size of the system you need.

Double check any figures I give, accuracy isn't my strong suite.

[J.P.M.]

OP: One/two other things, after you read the book, find something called PVWatts, read the help/info screens a couple of times and then do some runs before you call any more vendors. A decently oriented system at your location can probably produce something like 1,500 to 1,600 kWh/yr. per installed kW. Your 90% offset might come out to something la 6 to 7 kW system.

Things are changing in the CA residential energy cost dept. just now. Read up and be better able to see how much of your annual load you think it best to offset. As you seem to already know, you may find replacing 100% of your load is not as much of a no brainer as some may think.

[solardesire]

My 2 cents:
Solar panels are pretty much a commodity. All have 25 year warranties, they all last much longer than that. Very little difference in durability. Some brands like Sunpower will be significantly more efficient - but they cost a lot more (helpful if short on roof space though). Best value is the foreign brands, Canadian Solar, Trina, Q-Cells, Hyundai, etc. You are supporting American workers more when buying US brands but not better panels. Your choice.
In hot climates, I say that roof mounted electronics (microinverters) are a big reliability risk. If you have bad shading problems - microinverters (or optimizers) are helpful, but better is to find a place with no shade. String inverters are still the best value and best reliability and with the new multi-MPPT inputs are plenty efficient too. The other reason for going microinverter is if your building dept has implemented the Rapid Shutdown code rule yet that these system are good at.
The most cost effective size is usually about 90% of your yearly usage. go find PVWATTS online and punch in your numbers to find out pretty accurately how many KW of array you need. My guess for you is 1500kWh/kW yearly or 12000/1500*90% = ~7.2kW. If you have an EV then hey, go with a 7.7kW inverter which maxes out your 200A service and an 8 to 9kW array (if you have the room) and be good to go. California prices seem to be overpriced these days so good luck finding a good deal. Equipment prices are less than $1.25/watt these days so dealers are able to give good deals if you push them enough.

Hi Solarix,

Thanks a lot for your kind advise and my apology for my delayed reply. I've been fighting my PC as I can't seem to login to the forum from it. I am using a friends PC to do this. Still trying to figure out what is preventing me from login to the forum.

I am leaning to support American equipment as long as it offers competitive value. I found that my roof space is quite limited, so I am aiming for higher output panels. Also as advised that if Microinvertor becomes reliability risk in hot climate of Los Angeles, would Optimizer be better suited or it's gonna be the same?(solaredge?) The reason I ask is I do have minor shading issue at the present and I expect shading issue to become more serious in a few years as the trees are getting bigger, so I need system to be able to handle shading and my understanding is I need to use either microinvertor or optimizer, right?

Lately I also heard Enphase microinvertor are not suitable for high output panels. is that true? does this mean all high output panels cannot use microinvertors? does this mean the only option is to use optimizer? can optimizer handle the high output panels?

Also if equipment cost are less than $1.25/watt, the solar companies are really making huge profit as the quote I am seeing are between $4.5~$6/watt so far in Los Angeles Area. How to find a good installer with good price?

[solardesire]

Installed PV in So. CA can be had for about $3.50/nameplate Watt BEFORE federal tax credit or any local rebates. Maybe about 10% less or so for sharp negotiating, or mongrel equipment from "larry with a ladder" type installers. While not doubting anyone's veracity, I'd only remark that sometimes people get their pricing confused or something.

If people around here could indeed generally and easily purchase installed systems for 2.50/Watt before credits/rebates and own them, there would be a blizzard of installs around here. Maybe I'm missing something.

Sunpower is good stuff, but usually overpriced for what most folks need. The vaunted S.P "most efficient" hype refers to AREA efficiency - most output per m^2 of ft^2. That means a smaller footprint, but more per installed Watt or per square meter or sq. ft. At the bottom line where $$'s count, S.P. stuff is near and usually at the bottom in terms of cost efficiency.

Annual S.P. degradation is claimed to be less. For starters, it's a claim, not a proven fact. Solar hasn't been around long enough, nor is it easy to verify actual performance degradation. While not having data to refute the claim - and it may be true - even if true, it's not that much less than other quality equipment to justify the usual 15 - 25% up front premium over those other brands.

Most every equal (electrical) size array in the same location, orientation and service will produce about equal initial annual output, and do so for probably longer than you'll own it. I seriously doubt you'll want or be able to measure any difference from a S.P. array to other quality equipment. If space constrained, put the money you don't spend on S.P. vs. some other equipment into conservation measures. They're almost always more cost effective than any solar equipment you can buy at this time.

I'd suggest buying a book dealing with residential solar and energy conservation and after reading/studying, get quotes from reputable installers. Most bang for the buck is always better than low buck. The two are not the same.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

Hi JPM,

Thanks so much for your advise and sorry for my delayed reply. My PC isn't letting me login the forum for some unknown reason, so I had to burrow another PC to login and post. I realize Sunpower is "expensive". but since my roof space is pretty limited, do you have other panel suggestions to maximize output for the limited roof space? It also appears most solar company only work with one or two select brand of panels and often it's the lower output panels. I read someone say LG has good high output panels and price was good(I think I read about $3.5/watt). but I am not finding the right installer in los Angeles who has LG for good price. Only One company I spoke to has LG and it's their "high output" panels and supposed to be the highest cost solution. Their lower cost solution from SunEdison and solar world is already quoting around $5/watt, so their LG system price is even higher... I think I need help to find someone that would quote me in the $3.5/watt range.

I've also heard of a brand called Sunpreme from one company. Is it high end high output panel that's competitive to Sunpower? This company recommended it to me and say it's competitive to sunpower, but I've never heard of this brand from anyone, so....

Lastly, for high output panels, what invertor should I use if I have shading issue? I hear microinvertor can't handle high output panel, is this true? can central invertor handle shading issue?

By the way, which book do you recommend that's easy read?

Thanks a lot for your help.

[solardesire]

Listen to JPM, he gives good advice.

Shop around. Don't pay much more than about $3.50/watt before rebates if you can help it.

If you have significant shading, consider solaredge inverter, it's halfway between a string and microinverters; it optimizes each panel individually so one shaded panel doesn't kill the whole string.

1000 kWh/month = 33 kWh/day
If you're aiming to cover 90% of your needs with solar, that's 30 kWh/day.
I get an average of 4.5 kWh per kW of panels per day in LA; if your site is similar, then you'd need 30/4.5 = 6.7 kW.

If you go with moderately priced 300 watt panels, that's about 22 panels.
Each is about 40" by 64".
Do you have that much room? If so, you don't need to pay the premium for more efficient panels.

Also, have you already looked at reducing your electricity use by e.g. switching incandescents to LEDs or replacing old inefficient appliances? Might reduce the size of the system you need.

Double check any figures I give, accuracy isn't my strong suite.

Hi Dankegel,

Thanks a lot for your advise and sorry for late reply. I am having PC issue with logging in to the forum...

Are you also in Los Angeles? I am not seeing any quote near $3.5/watt. Can you let me know who I might contact that would offer a good deal?

I just recently heard of solaredge. Is this better than microinvertor? is it suitable for high output panels? I hear the hot LA weather is bad for microinvertor, will solaredge have same issue or not with the hot LA weather?

Since it looks like my south facing roof can fit only about ~18 panels at most, so I just want to maximize the space and I will definitely look for other ways to reduce electricity usage as well.

[solardesire]

OP: One/two other things, after you read the book, find something called PVWatts, read the help/info screens a couple of times and then do some runs before you call any more vendors. A decently oriented system at your location can probably produce something like 1,500 to 1,600 kWh/yr. per installed kW. Your 90% offset might come out to something la 6 to 7 kW system.

Things are changing in the CA residential energy cost dept. just now. Read up and be better able to see how much of your annual load you think it best to offset. As you seem to already know, you may find replacing 100% of your load is not as much of a no brainer as some may think.

Hi JPM,

I'll definitely check out the PVWatts. By the way, which book do you recommend?

Also for installer, should I work with company specialize only in Solar? or company that does solar as well as other energy conservation improvement projects? I hear there's serious consolidation of solar companies, so wondering about how long a company might be able to back up the warranty...

Thanks a lot.

[DanKegel]

Are you also in Los Angeles? I am not seeing any quote near $3.5/watt. Can you let me know who I might contact that would offer a good deal?

I just recently heard of solaredge. Is this better than microinvertor? is it suitable for high output panels? I hear the hot LA weather is bad for microinvertor, will solaredge have same issue or not with the hot LA weather?

Since it looks like my south facing roof can fit only about ~18 panels at most, so I just want to maximize the space and I will definitely look for other ways to reduce electricity usage as well.

Yes, I'm in LA, served by LADWP (and alas their subsidy is stepping down this week). I'll PM you the installer I'm using.

Solaredge is halfway between a regular inverter and a microinverter; it optimizes just as well, but is potentially more reliable because the electronics at each solar panel are simpler.
That said, Enphase microinverters aren't a bad choice. If you're worried about sizing, see http://www2.enphase.com/global/files...ightsizing.pdf

18 305 watt panels would give you 5.5 kW, or something close to 25 kWh/day average with no shading (around here, anyway).
That might be enough to drop you down into Tier 1, which lets you capture most of the benefit without having to pay LADWP's minimum charge.

You might be able to get to 30 kWh/day with more expensive panels, but the payback period would be longer.

[solar pete]

[QUOTE=solardesire;164050]Hi JPM,

Thanks so much for your advise and sorry for my delayed reply. My PC isn't letting me login the forum for some unknown reason, so I had to burrow another PC to login and post.

Howdy solardesire,

Sounds like you might have to enable cookies on your PC. Forums like this one need to use cookies or it just wont work, hope that helps

[J.P.M.]

Solardesire:

You're welcome. Wondered where you ran off to.

Best alternative I have for not using Sunpower with a cramped roof: Go with the LG's or just about any reputable manufacturer, and also reduce the demand on your system by 20% through a combination of conservation and/or a better understanding of how you pay for power both now and in the future and perhaps resign yourself to a slightly higher bill for a lot less upfront cost.

That is not meant as a snide or flip remark.

Conservation induced reductions are 1st of all, cheaper and more cost effective than any solar you'll find. 2d, load reduction will make the required system size smaller, making it easier to fit in the smaller space. 3d. You'll pay a lot less: 20% less per Watt than Sunpower for a system 80% as large. --->>> (.8) X (.8) = .64 of the Sunpower cost. Also, your bill will be lower, probably by more than 20% if you're on tiered rates. Win/win in the savings dept.

Learning how you pay for power and understanding that a 100% offset of a bill may not be cost effective can be an eye opener. Maybe your proposed system size could be reduced and cost 1,000's less for slightly (a few-10% ??) less in the annual savings dept.

Lastly, Look at your usage and perhaps changing to T.O.U. rates. NOT FOR EVERYBODY, but, depending on your use pattern SOMETIMES on T.O.U. your hourly usage patterns and T.O.U. rate can allow a smaller system to produce more revenue than if on tiered rates and also have a bill that MIGHT be less than the tiered rate bill, allowing still more system size reduction and therefore more system first cost reductions.

An old(er) version of "Solar For Dummies" is online, free for download. A bit dated, but not terribly so, and the price/availability is good.

Welcome back.

[Qubera]

Technology changes, so what's great a year ago might not be so great now. how to make sure we make the right choice in 2015?

I'm no expert, but I doubt solar will change much from year to year. You're likely to lose more money in terms of paying for electricity, than gain in excess production due to technical advances.

I just installed a 5.6kW system in Sherman Oaks for about $3.70/W. I called several companies for quotes, especially the big name ones and wasn't very impressed. I have severe shading issues from trees and hillside and few of the companies would give me a quote with micro-inverters. They all wanted to push 3.5 KW systems with optimizers at a $4.00-$4.75/W cost.

The installer I settled with is a retired Disney electrical engineer. Rather than just rely on google maps and software to create a system, he actually came to my house twice, got up on the roof and measured the outline of the horizon.

It took nine weeks from the time I paid a deposit to getting installation.

Make sure you get several quotes, and understand each one - there's a lot of discrepancy between what the sales person tells you and what the quote ends up. For example, they'll say it's a 5KW system, but that's just the maximum output, not the actual system size. You want to compare actual system sizes.

Good luck!

[solardesire]

I'm no expert, but I doubt solar will change much from year to year. You're likely to lose more money in terms of paying for electricity, than gain in excess production due to technical advances.

I just installed a 5.6kW system in Sherman Oaks for about $3.70/W. I called several companies for quotes, especially the big name ones and wasn't very impressed. I have severe shading issues from trees and hillside and few of the companies would give me a quote with micro-inverters. They all wanted to push 3.5 KW systems with optimizers at a $4.00-$4.75/W cost.

The installer I settled with is a retired Disney electrical engineer. Rather than just rely on google maps and software to create a system, he actually came to my house twice, got up on the roof and measured the outline of the horizon.

It took nine weeks from the time I paid a deposit to getting installation.

Make sure you get several quotes, and understand each one - there's a lot of discrepancy between what the sales person tells you and what the quote ends up. For example, they'll say it's a 5KW system, but that's just the maximum output, not the actual system size. You want to compare actual system sizes.

Good luck!

Hi Qubera,

Thanks for the great advice. Is it possible to share your system detail i.e. panel and inverter with us? Did you end up with micro inverter or optimizer? How does warranty work when purchase the system from independent engineer vs. big company? Please pm us (since we are not able to pm anyone yet until 10 posts) info of the person you contracted with so we may contact him.

Solardesire