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I'm shopping against two companies here in Northern Cal. Sunpower and Sungevity. My employer is offering a rebate between the two ranging from $500 to $1500. My home faces south but I have limited roof space since i'm in a townhome. Sunpower came out this morning and put together a quote for about 10 panels. A lot of people at my work avg about $4/DC W with Sunpower but I'm wondering if that has to do with the number of panels being installed. I received the following price.
10 x E20/327 at $16,350 - $981 rebate
10 x X21/345 at $18,147 - $1035 rebate
Both avg more than $4/DC W
From my research here it seems like Sunpower panels are great for limited roof sizes like mine but does it really make a difference in terms of longevity, degrade, and production for Sunpower panels vs other companies that source their panels from other manufactures? I want to purchase the system outright.
I haven't received a consultation from Sungevity yet but how do I go about comparing apples to apples without being distracted by the sales pitch?
Thanks!Comment
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I'd agree with most all of what you have written. $4.00 is a good price for Sunpower, but other panels may well be less expensive, and I'd get a couple more quotes for different panels. Still, in this application, and at that price S.P. may make sense for you. Look at long term cost/benefit and know that rate reform will affect you. Solar aside for a bit, if you have low usage, your bills will probably go up - conversely if you have high usage.
As for apples/apples: Buy a book about residential solar. After you read it, you'll know more than 90+% of the pitch people and you will have no need to listen to their B.S. Forget the S.P. pitch and use your best judjment. Sounds like your doing OK in that dept.Comment
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Many thanks to all of you who sent me PMs on your referrals. I just found out I have more than I expected amount of PMs in my inbox. I wanted to send a thank you note to each of you, but with less than 10 posts, my emails was rejected. I will get start on my installer research, again. And let you know my findings. This forum is awesome!Comment
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Many thanks to all of you who sent me PMs on your referrals. I just found out I have more than I expected amount of PMs in my inbox. I wanted to send a thank you note to each of you, but with less than 10 posts, my emails was rejected. I will get start on my installer research, again. And let you know my findings. This forum is awesome! (Just realized I replied to directly to J.P.M. only)Comment
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I am talking to many solar companies and installers. Many of them tell me the price they gave me is the lowest they could give, they are either breaking even or losing money. I am perplexed with these explanations. From a quick google search:
a LG 305 panels is about $450.
An Enphase M250 is about $180.
4 roofers at $350/day.
An electrician, $650/day.
Racking material, conduits and wires should not be more than $1000.
The rest are permit fees, a person to pull permits, and the office overhead w/ minor misc cost. (please correct me if I missed anything significant)
For a 7kw system, it should not cost more than $18000 (this is an generous estimate as I used a retail price for the panels and if you have to hire someone to do the installation as opposed to in house personnel.) The average price I received is $28000, at $4/w. That left over $10000 of profits for the solar installers. I don't know how much the sales person get out of this 10k.
I would think once the tax credit expired, the price would drop significantly, and I think someone in this forum mentioned that before. Of course the solar installers till make some money, but do they have to room to drop or are they really breaking even or loosing money?Comment
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I would add that some of the profit is for covering the warranty that had to offer. But say if they have to replace an Enphase microinverter in year 8, Enphase would ship them a new mi for free, so no cost to them. A trip charge to the house to replace the the mi would be about $85. Or even a replacing a panel, it should not cost them as much to replace. I would imagine they would put aside $1000 for future repair/replacement for each job (that again is an generous est.) There are still a lot of profit to be made.Comment
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You may be under some assumptions that are not necessarily reflective of the situation.
- Every one says that's their best and final price. Believe them as you wish. It seldom is.
- You have no idea of prices paid by /vendors installers for equipment or labor.
- In my experience, running a business and making a profit is a lot more involved than your analysis implies.
- If you have the skills and experience, you may choose to do the job yourself. It is possible - not easy or likely - but possible. See a recent saga by a poster w/handle "HX Guy".
On another line, When the fed. tax credit drops rom 30% to 10% as planned for the end on 2016, prices may well drop some, but probably less than the 20% loss of tax credit. Likely bottom line: Customers will probably pay slightly more after all tax credits.
I have no evidence to back this up, but I'd would think that $18K might be a possible cost for a 7 kW system before lots of costs associated with running a business are thrown in.
I think your analysis is simplistic.
FWIW: 4 bucks /Watt on LG 300's doesn't sound like an unusual first cut price out of the chute. Get (re)quotes on LG 280's and give the vendors a chance to lower their prices, and change to a string inverter on the third pass through the negotiation/quotation process.
When I got quotes for my system, first quote prices ranged from about $5.20/Watt to about $5.00/Watt. I signed a contract at $4.50/Watt. (See the CSI database, reservation #: SD-CSI-17646).
Everything is negotiable. It's just business.Comment
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An analysis by someone with little idea is usually a bit light weight - this one is just that.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Comment
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I didn't mean to offend anyone especially the installers here in the forum. As I said, I just did a quick google search to find those numbers. To call that an analysis would give it too much of a credit.
I have had a business before and I know the cost of running a business. With all the insurances, city permits, inspections, workers comp, rent, etc...it adds up. But those are considered soft costs. I was wondering if I missed any hard cost. Mr. Russ, please chime in, I could almost hear you say "only someone is too dumb and ignorance would not know this!" So I would be better educated when I negotiate for a better price. And the average $4/w is not the first round of negotiation. The 7kw system started off at $38000.
One common tactic they have is, they ask I if can find someone who could give me a better price, prove it on paper, they would match it. But it can't be "larry with a ladder" type of business. So it shows they do have the room to lower the price, but they won't do it unless someone else is willing to lower it first.Comment
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Until about a year ago, before the CSI rebates expired, any job sold in CA that received a CSI rebate - most all residential systems and most others - had everything about the job except the nane and street address in a big sortable spreadsheet. great information about pricing, vendors, equipment, array sizes, orientations, you name it. In short, most everything the vendors don't want you to know. That database is still around. The most recent data is probably about a yr. old, but prices probably haven't gone up much, if at all. Sort by vendor/zip/equip/whatever. That may help in the pricing dept. or the search for vendors. I'd suggest keeping in mind the data is out of date.
$5.43/Watt for a semi-standard system is unrealistically high at this time, but if I was a vendor I'd start high too. I've found it's easier to drop my price after quotation than raise it.Comment
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