solar panels already for retail sale at under a dollar

[solarn3rd]

I'm sorry this thread got into a bit of a name calling argument! The whole point is that grid parity at least in many areas is already here now if careful cost containment is used on mounting cabling ect.My friend has already received his equipment from solelec.com and despite a few small snafu's with connectors we will start mounting the panels this weekend for a 3200 watt system. Money is being saved by doing his own labor and building his own racks instead of buying commercial ones.This system should hit repayment in about 10 years without counting tax incentives and the local utility rebate system. Missouri has some of the cheapest power in the country so if is cost effective here it should be cost effective almost anywhere.It's no longer a matter of 5years or ten years down the road.At least for the do it your self-er the time is now.

I second that! Especially for people living in areas of high electricity cost (cough Hawaii cough) the system payback time is on the order of 3 to 5 years now.

[russ]

There are definitely select areas that have a very high tarif or high time of use rates where there is a reasonable payback even today. The subsidies and incentives make it possible.

For the other 90% plus of the world we have to wait a bit longer.

[muskrat]

unless there are high tarriffs solar should be cost effective now!

After checking the web I see that electricity rates in turkey are about $.13 dollars per kilowatt hour. They are selling Japanese made panels in the united states for under a dollar a watt and whole systems minus the mounting for $1.82 per watt. Full sine wave inverters seem to be cheaper not more expensive in Europe. Perhaps import tariffs and regulatory expenses override any savings in shipping but it seems to me that there should be a reasonable payback period on unsubsidized solar in turkey right now. If there are high tariffs or other roadblocks to solar perhaps if enough people become informed in your country those roadblocks can be removed!

[muskrat]

After doing a little more checking I see that in general turkey is actually a significantly better place for solar energy than the middle of the united states where I live. With 7.2 average hours of full sun a day compared to only 5 here in cloudy Missouri as well as 30% greater sunlight intensity. Turkey has a very large and thriving solar hot water industry but as you say almost no solar electric. I wonder if this is due to high capital cost or tarriffs or simply a lack of experiance in solar electric. It seems to me that turkey is ready for a even larger growth in unsubsidized solar electric than the United States is.

[russ]

Similar to LA - a little more to the North. Not 7+ hours of sunlight. Even in LA they consider an average of 5.5 hours of useful sun per day.

We have an annual insolation of something like 5 Kw/m2/day here according to NASA - from my observations from my weatehr station İ believe that is on the high side. Maybe 85% of that is useful sun when you discount early and late hours.

İ saw the lowball price of 1.82 dollars per watt excluding mounts and labor - İ doubt the price is for top line equipment. Certainly for thin film.

İmport duties drive up the cost of everything. İ don't think İ have ever seen anything in Europe that is cheaper than in the US - too many taxes.

The only reason solar is moving in the US today (Germany, Spain) is very generous subsidies and incentives and high power costs in certain areas like California. Even then without net metering or a high price from the utility it doesn't make sense. Actually the US can't afford it either but the politicians haven't figured that out yet.

Solar panels are available from numerous parties and are exported from here. People are aware of it but it is not practical.

[muskrat]

whats your definition of top of the line equipment?

The panels in the $1.82 price per watt bid are Kaneka,yes they are thin film and low efficiency, so what? Kaneka is a very large Japanese corporation ,the panels are ul approved and have a 20 year 80% warranty.The inverter is a sunny boy, a good brand .If you are space limited or have very high mounting cost this system would not work for you but many people have plenty of roof or yard space for a system large enough to meet at least a large part of their needs. 5 hrs per day of sun times 365 days per year is 1.82 kwhr per year for each watt of panel . 1.82kwhr/yr x .13 dollars/ kwhr x 15 years equals $3.55 return on each watt of panel. It seems to me that if you can install a system for less than $3.55/watt it is cost effective now without subsidies.It is true this does not take into account capitalization cost but it also does not take into account the higher utility cost you will almost certainly get in the next 15 yrs.
what is the best price you can get on a large home system in turkey now?

[muskrat]

subsidised solar pure profit

I have a friend who bought 3350 watts of Kaneka panels from Sun electric along with most of the other needed components for a grid tie system.He used a cca /aluminum mounting system with tyvec strips between the aluminum and cca to prevent corrosion.All labor was done by friends. He is a certified licensed electrical engineer and so avoided some expense there in the design department.Here's how the economics worked out.
$8900 dollars for all materials.$100 for pizza for friends who were willing to help on the project along with much personal labor.Rebate check of $6700@ $2 per watt from Ameren UE's grid tie subsidy program . $2600 dollar federal tax credit. add it all up and he was PAID $300 to install a 3350 watt photovoltaic system on his home! How do you figure the payback period on that!? He still had to front the $8900 dollars up front of course and there were probably at least a 150 hours of labor involved.Sadly the Ameren UE program does not have unlimited funds. Still all in all a most wise business move. The Kaneka panels are no longer available at the $.98 dollar per watt price for a system purchase but unisolar 124 still are with a system price of $1.67 per watt from sunelec.These panels are peel and stick to a suitable metal roof so the total system cost may be even lower. I am starting my planning now for a 8000 plus watt system for one of my apartment buildings.I hope I can complete it in time to get some Ameren UE money!

[MarineLiner]

[WhyZed]

Great thread Guys, good to see it got back on track.
I've been reading and looking for those elusive .99$ per watt panels here in Ontario Canada but have been unable to land a deal. Closest I got is 2.45/W on some very high quality 280watt panels. I'm about to pull the trigger unless someone can direct me to some quality panels for less.

[muskrat]

try sunelec.com

I haven't been able to find 98 cent per watt ones lately but $1.487 per watt still available from several sources.

[Jonathan Cole]

A riddle: If you don't go solar and simply continue with the electric company, what is the payback time?
Answer: The Electric company has no payback time because they haver no intention of ever paying you back. Solar is the only available option that not only pays you back but after the payback you have NO COSTS other than modest maintenance outlays.

[russ]

The message is only partly true - possibly the smallest part.

With solar you are prepaying your electric bill for years to come. In states with substantial rebates of their own plus the federal rebate or possibly attractive FITs the economics are attractive now.

Without the rebates/incentives you are prepaying the bill for 10 or more years ahead of time.

With leasing you are enabling some third party to access the government treasury. They are not in the business to be nice guys regardless of their claims.

[Jonathan Cole]

The reply does not address the fact that the electric company will never pay back your electrical costs. The payback time for a solar energy investment is not comparable to electric utility use which never pays you back.

More important than the concept of payback time is the issue of whether we can continue to poison our world based on an economic premise that is fundamentally skewed to favor the vested interests. The basic economic premise is actually one of financing costs. The utility industry has us by the short hairs bcause they have easy access to financing for their large power generators. Then we pay it back, with interest and a profit to them. Unfortunately, by doing so we also squander the life-supporting elements of the natural world.

Are we willing to continue doing that because we are unwilling to find a means to finance our own energy needs? I for one, am not and have proven to myself and others that there is a way to take control of our energy requirements without any loss of standard of living. Many people would be able to accomplish this by foregoing non-vital expenditures that are for entertainment, coffee, fashion, and other trendy but dispensable items.

I think we need to get our priorities in order.

[russ]

Your comparing an electric bill and solar is totally ignoring the value of money - it is false economy. The incentives/subsidies & FITs that are being offered today are not sustainable themselves!

At present many technologies in many fields use excessive amounts of natural resources for non essential items.

Most of us have no desire to go live in a cave and that would only cause a 'cave shortage' anyhow.

The most practical solar PV application today is investing in a community solar project - a coop type of venture. This is being done in Colorado somewhere I believe. The facility can be expected to operate with a high capacity factor and achieve the maximum return that can be gained. Rooftop solar will rarely do that.

Quote: Many people would be able to accomplish this by foregoing non-vital expenditures that are for entertainment, coffee, fashion, and other trendy but dispensable items
end Quote.

Fine - I am all for you doing that - more power to you.

The sky is not falling and faster than yesterday despite what the loony bunch would like for all to believe.

[Jonathan Cole]

Wow! And you are the moderator?