Tesla to build battery in South Australia

[max2k]

Dan, I think you mean well, but you are just not competent to be giving any advice on most of the things you talk about.

Lets try a week's vacation till 08-01-2017, ~10:00 PM and see how that works out, We mods have to do something to all these threads that wander all over hell and gone, due to the off-the-wall stuff you randomly throw out.

Nope, in times of overload, that battery only buys a couple minutes - maybe not even that. Unless you hook it to the grid with a expensive giant transformer that sits idle 364.9 days of the year - then you can suck power till the battery goes flat. With a 6Gw transformer sitting idle. How much power can a battery & cables deal with - I doubt it's 6Gw, which is what was needed back in 2003
4:10:40 p.m. Flow flips to 2 GW eastward from Michigan through Ontario (a net reversal of 5.7 GW of power), then reverses back westward again within a half second.



Well a phone is faster than a telegraph, but there was a Plethora of Problems that day. The first 90 minutes was the time frame humans could have done something, but the automated alarm failed. Then at 4:08 thru 4:10 eastern, it all fell apart as last ditch automated cutouts kicked in, way faster than a phone could be dialed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northe...ence_of_events

Sorry for offtopic, couldn't resist: I (from all ppl) remember that blackout: I was working in downtown Toronto and leaving the office noticed a lot of 'broken' traffic signals and unusual traffic mess. It was a hot day in Toronto and as my luck goes right at that time my car's cooling fans in the engine bay decided to quit meaning: no AC and if I wanted to keep the engine from overheating I need to be moving on the road so incoming air would cool it but the traffic jams were in all directions for miles. Toronto is located on the shores of lake Ontario so there're only 180 degree sector available to leave downtown. So here I was sitting in the car with heater (!) at full blast and opened windows having sauna right in the car . I also had important appointment that evening which I still made 2 hrs later. The car survived, that heater was barely enough to keep it from overheating at idle.

[Mike90250]

Dan, I think you mean well, but you are just not competent to be giving any advice on most of the things you talk about.

Lets try a week's vacation till 08-01-2017, ~10:00 PM and see how that works out, We mods have to do something to all these threads that wander all over hell and gone, due to the off-the-wall stuff you randomly throw out.

Several folks were talking about how politics was getting in the way of engineering; I just wanted to mention some of the sensible things happening to reduce chances of another blackout, to cheer people up.

Nope, in times of overload, that battery only buys a couple minutes - maybe not even that. Unless you hook it to the grid with a expensive giant transformer that sits idle 364.9 days of the year - then you can suck power till the battery goes flat. With a 6Gw transformer sitting idle. How much power can a battery & cables deal with - I doubt it's 6Gw, which is what was needed back in 2003
4:10:40 p.m. Flow flips to 2 GW eastward from Michigan through Ontario (a net reversal of 5.7 GW of power), then reverses back westward again within a half second.

The grid operator can nip the problem in the bud by signalling generators to quickly increase their output. (Loads can also respond to that signal by reducing their load.)

Well a phone is faster than a telegraph, but there was a Plethora of Problems that day. The first 90 minutes was the time frame humans could have done something, but the automated alarm failed. Then at 4:08 thru 4:10 eastern, it all fell apart as last ditch automated cutouts kicked in, way faster than a phone could be dialed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northe...ence_of_events

[SWFLA]

How how much battery would it take to make Utopia? I don't know.

townhall.com/columnists/pauldriessen/2017/07/22/tesla-battery-subsidy-and-sustainability-fantasies-n2358396

[Sunking]

I think we said the same thing.

Yes Sir.

[bcroe]

Bruce that is somewhat correct. But there is some human interaction. Operators know the capacity of the system, and patterns. When a system is nearing capacity, the Operator can then either bid/buy on the Market, if none is available, shed load aka Blackout. The safety valve so to speak is automatic, If a generator is over loaded, it trips off line, Hell breaks loose and you have a massive blackout over a very large area. Exactly what is happening in the land of OZ and coming to CA.

I think we said the same thing.

[Sunking]

i don't think we are getting it. The generation capacity is like a giant phase locked loop, someone
has figured out the Proportional, Integral, and Differential feedback to stabilize it. The system is
controlling turbine throttles to keep the frequency on 60 HZ; no human hand it trusted to do such
a job. Humans can take steps to bring on plants or dump loads, though that is heading toward
automation as well. Bruce Roe

Bruce that is somewhat correct. But there is some human interaction. Operators know the capacity of the system, and patterns. When a system is nearing capacity, the Operator can then either bid/buy on the Market, if none is available, shed load aka Blackout. The safety valve so to speak is automatic, If a generator is over loaded, it trips off line, Hell breaks loose and you have a massive blackout over a very large area. Exactly what is happening in the land of OZ and coming to CA.

There are really only two good working solutions. Short Term is NG peaker plants. Those can be built very fast. Peakers are not real efficient as boiler plants, they use gas turbines. They can be on line in minutes at full production. Long term is traditional power plant to cover base loads.

Batteries are just plain stupid and a waste of money. As we have learned Lithium batteries do not offset C02. You will never have an EROI with any battery. EV fans got a cold slap in the face including myself.

Th eland of OZ has more than enough energy for the whole world to use for millions of years. . In fact some of the World uses it, Australia just refuses to use it.

[bcroe]

i don't think we are getting it. The generation capacity is like a giant phase locked loop, someone
has figured out the Proportional, Integral, and Differential feedback to stabilize it. The system is
controlling turbine throttles to keep the frequency on 60 HZ; no human hand it trusted to do such
a job. Humans can take steps to bring on plants or dump loads, though that is heading toward
automation as well. Bruce Roe

[DanKegel]

Are you dumb enough to think a human being is faster then the SPEED OF LIGHT?

Sunking, you made my morning. That made me spit out my coffee

[SunEagle]

I was reading through a greenie publication that linked the the autbors personal opinions and research on Germany and energy poverty. "They" indeed not only dont like coal/nuclear but want to throw away any overproduction of electricity from those two sources, when abundant or net demand is low, to keep renewable point pricing high in the "market". Any dirty power that negatively affects RE spot pricing should be eliminated from the equation, that way RE plants can continue to be both good for the earth and unquestionably a great financial investment. How do ya like that logic?

Not my logic. But then again I am not a greedy business.

Based on where Germany is going, I think that more than likely they will see power outages in the future while the people in charge will continue to line their pockets.

[max2k]

I was reading through a greenie publication that linked the the autbors personal opinions and research on Germany and energy poverty. "They" indeed not only dont like coal/nuclear but want to throw away any overproduction of electricity from those two sources, when abundant or net demand is low, to keep renewable point pricing high in the "market". Any dirty power that negatively affects RE spot pricing should be eliminated from the equation, that way RE plants can continue to be both good for the earth and unquestionably a great financial investment. How do ya like that logic?

it's good politics- easier sell to uneducated public. What do we want to them to say- we f..d this up, wasted your money and now we're screwed both ways- no money and no power. No politician will ever do that, they'll continue to gamble passing consequences to the next guy in the office.

[cebury]

Most people don't like the idea of a power generating plant that uses either nuclear or fossil fuel. I guess they rather spend more and take their chances of not having a blackout.

Go figure.

I was reading through a greenie publication that linked the the autbors personal opinions and research on Germany and energy poverty. "They" indeed not only dont like coal/nuclear but want to throw away any overproduction of electricity from those two sources, when abundant or net demand is low, to keep renewable point pricing high in the "market". Any dirty power that negatively affects RE spot pricing should be eliminated from the equation, that way RE plants can continue to be both good for the earth and unquestionably a great financial investment. How do ya like that logic?

[SunEagle]

putting that battery in place doesn't look sensible to me ...

Batteries will work to help stabilize a power grid if they are properly sized and provide the requirements to keep the voltage from sagging and frequency from drifting. They also work for short duration voltage outages to keep loads working like a UPS does for a computer.

What does not make sense (at least to me) is the cost of a grid sized battery that is a lot more money (when you consider its lifespan and kWh delivery limitations) then just investing in a power source that does not need to be recharged and can provide more kWh in a 24/7 period.

But most people don't like the idea of a power generating plant that uses either nuclear or fossil fuel. I guess they rather spend more and take their chances of not having a blackout.

Go figure.

[Sunking]

I think SK diagnosis of the problem makes sense and why Aussie gvmt went onto spending spree in the wrong direction ... I know, it was rhetorical question .

Stupid is what Stupid does.

Here is the irony. Every politician, engineer, and scientist all know nuclear is the right answer. It is dirt cheap power once you remove the politics and red tape. It is also the cleanest and safest fuel out there. Now here is where Stupid is what Stupid does:

Australia has the world's largest uranium deposits known to man. Some 10 million years worth of fuel for the world. They do not use it. They mine it and ship it to Japan, France, China, and Russia to use. They have more energy than man knows what to do with. That my friend is pure politics, not an engineering problem.

[Sunking]

That's exactly right (and I think Sunking said roughly the same thing).
The grid operator can nip the problem in the bud by signalling generators to quickly increase their output. (Loads can also respond to that signal by reducing their load.)

Do not ever use my name again to vouch for your ignorance. Are you dumb enough to think a human being is faster then the SPEED OF LIGHT?

The USA National Grid is the most complicated and Complex Machine man has ever created. No man can wrap his head around it. The Grid has a mind of its own. The reason URD Blackouts are so wide spread is because MAN cannot get out ahead of it and stop it. Utilities are starting to use AI, but still a long way to go. But once you use computers to control the networks, someone is going to hack it.

[max2k]

The real fix is to go nuke. Quite the novel idea here.
nextbigfuture.com/2017/07/breakthrough-in-size-safety-of-a-complete-nuclear-power-module-in-a-shipping-container.html

Nah, it's another 'draft' design seeking attention (public money).