Tesla to build battery in South Australia

[DanKegel]

When the grid falls short of overall power, voltage starts to sag, and that starts to affect the RPM of the generators, and the frequency starts to try to change. At some point, the phase locking between different generating units starts to drift and the system then starts to dump " out of spec" generators. This starts the cascade of overloaded generators start to slow down and get booted off the grid, leaving the other generators overloaded and they get booted off too. Only takes a couple seconds to loose it all.

That's exactly right (and I think Sunking said roughly the same thing).
The grid operator can nip the problem in the bud by signalling generators to quickly increase their output. (Loads can also respond to that signal by reducing their load.)
For a US overview, see ipd.anl.gov/anlpubs/2016/01/124217.pdf
For an Australian overview, see aemo.com.au/-/media/Files/PDF/Guide-to-Ancillary-Services-in-the-National-Electricity-Market.ashx

[max2k]

That's exactly right (and I think Sunking said roughly the same thing).
The grid operator can nip the problem in the bud by signalling generators to quickly increase their output. (Loads can also respond to that signal by reducing their load.)
For a US overview, see ipd.anl.gov/anlpubs/2016/01/124217.pdf
For an Australian overview, see aemo.com.au/-/media/Files/PDF/Guide-to-Ancillary-Services-in-the-National-Electricity-Market.ashx

just to clarify - 'operator' in US pdf refers to the organization, not one of their personnel. 'Signalling' means sending signal from some monitoring system automatically as the time scale for this is in seconds, no human will be able to react that quickly. I'm not clear how it all relates to the original topic.

I just went through original link and the article is full of politics- wind farm + battery is much more expensive than gas powered power plant where gas is available. If that assumption is valid for Australia I don't understand how installing big battery would reduce price for consumers. I think SK diagnosis of the problem makes sense and why Aussie gvmt went onto spending spree in the wrong direction ... I know, it was rhetorical question .

[DanKegel]

I'm not clear how it all relates to the original topic.

Several folks were talking about how politics was getting in the way of engineering; I just wanted to mention some of the sensible things happening to reduce chances of another blackout, to cheer people up.

(Easier said than done )

[max2k]

Several folks were talking about how politics was getting in the way of engineering; I just wanted to mention some of the sensible things happening to reduce chances of another blackout, to cheer people up.

(Easier said than done )

putting that battery in place doesn't look sensible to me ...

[DanKegel]

putting that battery in place doesn't look sensible to me ...

Right, well, I wanted to point out some sensible things that *were* happening.

[solar pete]

100 calendar days or 100 work days ?

I dont know Mike, probably 100 working days once all paperwork and permits and wot not are sorted. Our electricity grid and the National Electricity market is beyond a joke and indeed a national disgrace. We have been our own worst enemy when it comes to destroying local manufacturing jobs, once apon a time when SA was not part of a national grid and the state owned the mines and power stations we were thriving. Then came along a bunch of slimmy corporate types and they got cozy with the worlds stupidest politicians and whala, low and behold we have the higest electricity prices in the western world and are basically broke and going backwards. Ok rank over, we have dug the hole we are in, being that we now have way to many wind farms the idiots could at least legislate the rich owner's of these very generously dealt with wind farm's should all have to have a giant battery at their own expense not the taxpayer.

The tax payer will foot the bill for this battery I think the battery will essentially be gifted to a private company who will no doubt make a profit at the expense of the people, we will have a cool battery though

[SWFLA]

The real fix is to go nuke. Quite the novel idea here.
nextbigfuture.com/2017/07/breakthrough-in-size-safety-of-a-complete-nuclear-power-module-in-a-shipping-container.html

[max2k]

The real fix is to go nuke. Quite the novel idea here.
nextbigfuture.com/2017/07/breakthrough-in-size-safety-of-a-complete-nuclear-power-module-in-a-shipping-container.html

Nah, it's another 'draft' design seeking attention (public money).

[Sunking]

That's exactly right (and I think Sunking said roughly the same thing).
The grid operator can nip the problem in the bud by signalling generators to quickly increase their output. (Loads can also respond to that signal by reducing their load.)

Do not ever use my name again to vouch for your ignorance. Are you dumb enough to think a human being is faster then the SPEED OF LIGHT?

The USA National Grid is the most complicated and Complex Machine man has ever created. No man can wrap his head around it. The Grid has a mind of its own. The reason URD Blackouts are so wide spread is because MAN cannot get out ahead of it and stop it. Utilities are starting to use AI, but still a long way to go. But once you use computers to control the networks, someone is going to hack it.

[Sunking]

I think SK diagnosis of the problem makes sense and why Aussie gvmt went onto spending spree in the wrong direction ... I know, it was rhetorical question .

Stupid is what Stupid does.

Here is the irony. Every politician, engineer, and scientist all know nuclear is the right answer. It is dirt cheap power once you remove the politics and red tape. It is also the cleanest and safest fuel out there. Now here is where Stupid is what Stupid does:

Australia has the world's largest uranium deposits known to man. Some 10 million years worth of fuel for the world. They do not use it. They mine it and ship it to Japan, France, China, and Russia to use. They have more energy than man knows what to do with. That my friend is pure politics, not an engineering problem.

[SunEagle]

putting that battery in place doesn't look sensible to me ...

Batteries will work to help stabilize a power grid if they are properly sized and provide the requirements to keep the voltage from sagging and frequency from drifting. They also work for short duration voltage outages to keep loads working like a UPS does for a computer.

What does not make sense (at least to me) is the cost of a grid sized battery that is a lot more money (when you consider its lifespan and kWh delivery limitations) then just investing in a power source that does not need to be recharged and can provide more kWh in a 24/7 period.

But most people don't like the idea of a power generating plant that uses either nuclear or fossil fuel. I guess they rather spend more and take their chances of not having a blackout.

Go figure.

[cebury]

Most people don't like the idea of a power generating plant that uses either nuclear or fossil fuel. I guess they rather spend more and take their chances of not having a blackout.

Go figure.

I was reading through a greenie publication that linked the the autbors personal opinions and research on Germany and energy poverty. "They" indeed not only dont like coal/nuclear but want to throw away any overproduction of electricity from those two sources, when abundant or net demand is low, to keep renewable point pricing high in the "market". Any dirty power that negatively affects RE spot pricing should be eliminated from the equation, that way RE plants can continue to be both good for the earth and unquestionably a great financial investment. How do ya like that logic?

[max2k]

I was reading through a greenie publication that linked the the autbors personal opinions and research on Germany and energy poverty. "They" indeed not only dont like coal/nuclear but want to throw away any overproduction of electricity from those two sources, when abundant or net demand is low, to keep renewable point pricing high in the "market". Any dirty power that negatively affects RE spot pricing should be eliminated from the equation, that way RE plants can continue to be both good for the earth and unquestionably a great financial investment. How do ya like that logic?

it's good politics- easier sell to uneducated public. What do we want to them to say- we f..d this up, wasted your money and now we're screwed both ways- no money and no power. No politician will ever do that, they'll continue to gamble passing consequences to the next guy in the office.

[SunEagle]

I was reading through a greenie publication that linked the the autbors personal opinions and research on Germany and energy poverty. "They" indeed not only dont like coal/nuclear but want to throw away any overproduction of electricity from those two sources, when abundant or net demand is low, to keep renewable point pricing high in the "market". Any dirty power that negatively affects RE spot pricing should be eliminated from the equation, that way RE plants can continue to be both good for the earth and unquestionably a great financial investment. How do ya like that logic?

Not my logic. But then again I am not a greedy business.

Based on where Germany is going, I think that more than likely they will see power outages in the future while the people in charge will continue to line their pockets.

[DanKegel]

Are you dumb enough to think a human being is faster then the SPEED OF LIGHT?

Sunking, you made my morning. That made me spit out my coffee