Would you buy if offered Battery Bank?

[einsvanian]

Then I would say your company may have found a useful product. But to come here and start asking open questions leads me to believe you are fishing for something that will financially benefit you or someone you know.

Since you are now stating that you work on very large solar / battery systems I believe my first assumption was correct. You may not be a salesperson but your company sells battery systems.

I would hope that whatever you build and sell meet all NEC and UL listing required for US usage.

I did state I am looking into selling battery banks, I do not sell them currently. I work for the Government on their solar array systems and radio communications. I do not sell any solar products at this time. I am completely a solar customer; Government buys and I am buying my system from Solar City.

My intentions was to see if there is a demand for battery banks/backups; which I am taking by all the push back here on this forum nation wide there is no demand. Only in California, there is a demand due to limitations on our systems. Correction: Only a few areas have demands for battery banks not just California.

I am certified and have to fall under the NEC; UL is not required but are just like BBB good to have because most people use them as standards.

[foo1bar]

Why do people say POCO provides for free?

Because they do - it isn't any additional charge.
That's what net metering does - and why it's such a good deal for solar system owners.
I'll give the POCO >10kwh during the day today, and use them tonight or in a few months.
I'll get credited full retail price for the kwh I give them.
then pay the retail price back when I use them.
Often with TOU the retail price credited is peak price (and higher) and the price at night when they're used is off-peak and therefore lower.
Personally I'm not on TOU - so it's the same price all day. (My TOU isn't as beneficial for solar as those that PG&E or other companies have)

Here in California I have a 5kw panel array and 3600w inverter and still pay $275 at end of year to local electric company.

What are you paying?
is it for additional kwh beyond what you produced?
My guess is that's a good part of it.
I'm guessing you're Southern CA - and IIRC they have a $15/month minimum - which would be $180/year.
And that's the same minimum whether you "store" 0 kwh with them or 10000 kwh.

The power company does not provide battery backup for free.

Not battery backup - power "storage" for free - ie. net metering.

Here in California Solar City is limited on production being 97% of consumption. I am still paying the power company 3% of my electricity.
Here in California some people even pay higher than $600 per month.

I live here in California.
Solar City is not limited to 97% by any statewide law.
That is probably their own limit that they use, since they should be trying to keep you right at using enough kwh that you use up the minimum charge in those places that have it.
(I'd think 90% or less of usage on a kwh basis would usually be closer to the right size once you go TOU tariff)


So - are you saying you want to pay POCO even less money?
There's 3 scenarios here I think.
1> you add more modules (panels) so that you are sure to get to the minimum charge.
2> you add batteries and modules and go off-grid (no more POCO bill at all - BUT - batteries alone will now be >$5K, and last only 10 years at best - meaning you avoided paying SCE/SDG&E $2750 by paying $5000 to the battery manuf.
3> you add batteries and modules, but stay on-grid - your bill goes from $275 to $180/year - can get by with smaller battery, so maybe only spend $2k to avoid $950 over 10 years.

All of those are not great financial scenarios - #1 is probably the best option of the 3, but even it probably is around a 10 year payback because you're mostly in the lower tier for the extra kwh you are using.

[einsvanian]

Oh. By the way you don't own the thread and since it is an open forum you should expect push back from people that do not have the same views are you do. So get a thicker skin or take a hike.

I expect push backs and insults: I ask for the push backs so I can prepare myself for the unknown questions. The insults need to be kept at bay. I realize I was feeding the fire and I apologize for that. I delete most of my response on a few posts trying to put the fire out.

You have to remember Tesla is working with a battery bank that has physical limits: size, weight, higher discharge rates, and so forth. Battery Banks for homes have very little limiting. They still have some but are a lot less than what Tesla is facing!

The batteries I am using are considered one the best types of batteries used for many applications. They just never been thought of when it comes to battery banks. Their battery composition is the best I found so far. The charge controllers I found are great and have many features than most other competitors. I've tested them for over 4 years now and I feel they are market ready.

My plans are to make them proprietary by locking them inside a specially designed storage to keep others out for safety reasons, as well as, to protect the 15 year warranty on them. These battery banks will be built with quality and durability in mind. I don't want to go into details without discussing this with an attorney of what type of information I should provide without damaging my proprietary design.

[SunEagle]

Daily cycling can be controlled if the battery bank is properly sized for load. Currently, the systems I work on have 6400ah battery banks and 7200w solar arrays and the load varies between 20a up to 100a with an average of 30a per hour. This gives weeks if not a month of run time before charging is required. The systems I work on are Solar Powered only and no other source is used.

Then I would say your company may have found a useful product. But to come here and start asking open questions leads me to believe you are fishing for something that will financially benefit you or someone you know.

Since you are now stating that you work on very large solar / battery systems I believe my first assumption was correct. You may not be a salesperson but your company sells battery systems.

I would hope that whatever you build and sell meet all NEC and UL listing required for US usage.

[einsvanian]

Daily cycling can be controlled if the battery bank is properly sized for load. Currently, the systems I work on have 6400ah battery banks and 7200w solar arrays and the load varies between 20a up to 100a with an average of 30a per hour. This gives weeks if not a month of run time before charging is required. The systems I work on are Solar Powered only and no other source is used.

[einsvanian]

Mostly in Southern California, I was hoping nation wide shortly after. I keep forgetting not all states are as strict as California so some allow 100% production and not charge for using them as a backup.

[SunEagle]

For those who don't know what impedance is: it is the total resistance in electronic circuits.



Your statements:
"All they do is match the impedance between a battery bank and a solar panel to maximize power transfer"
Electrical and electronic theory: Impedance matching minimizes on heat. Which is detrimental to chargers, batteries, cables, and connectors! Therefore, extending life of battery banks.

I recommend you Google: Impedance Matching

Impedance is resistance: resistance controls current in a circuit which creates heat. So when you match the resistance in one device to another you create less heat. batteries in battery banks maintain their temperatures during charging prolonging the life of the battery.

I rest my case.

BTW: I was using MPPT as an example: there are other types of chargers out there that used multiple types of charging techniques depending on the chemistry of the battery bank and other sorts.

In my honest opinion MPPT is the best type of charging system for any battery bank. In my opinion they have increased the left span of battery banks compared to 40 years ago. If you don't believe that then take a hike and get off my thread.

Your are correct that if you can control the heat buildup in a battery system while it is being charged or discharged you improve the reliability and possibly the life.

But as Tesla has shown that even with their very sophisticated cooling system their batteries still do not have the ability to have daily cycles with long life without spending a lot of money up front with the possibility it will last more than 5 years.

Sure having a battery system as a backup power source sounds great but again the cost to install a battery system is still much more expensive to installing a generator including the fuel and maintenance costs over the lifetime of the system. So what if the generator takes a little care and maintenance so does a battery system. The are not plug and play and definitely not something you install and forget about.

Maybe you have found the holy grail of energy storage but based on that $10k you plan to spend on your new design I would rather spend 1/3 of that and have a very reliable emergency generator for the very few times I lose power.

Oh. By the way you don't own the thread and since it is an open forum you should expect push back from people that do not have the same views are you do. So get a thicker skin or take a hike.

[einsvanian]

With daily cycling?
If so, I think it'll be far too expensive to be commercially viable.


$600/month on electricitly is quite a bit.
I don't see how it follows that people spending that amount would still pay the electric company $1k/year if installed solar.
Nor how you would build something with batteries that would reduce the amount paid to the POCO.

As others have pointed out, with net metering the POCO provides the "battery" for free.
They "store" the energy for months at no additional cost.
(Sure it's not actually a battery, nor is it stored energy - but from the homeowner's use model it acts the same way.)

If I were you, I wouldn't invest much into this endeavor.
You don't have a compelling reason for customers to buy it.

Why do people say POCO provides for free? Here in California I have a 5kw panel array and 3600w inverter and still pay $275 at end of year to local electric company. Not including the $5 to $10 monthly for taxes, emergency, and several other fees. The power company does not provide battery backup for free. Here in California Solar City is limited on production being 97% of consumption. I am still paying the power company 3% of my electricity.
Here in California some people even pay higher than $600 per month.

[einsvanian]

I've designed MPPT power converters. And if you think that MPPT converters will make batteries last longer - then you are believing your own sales propaganda. All they do is match the impedance between a battery bank and a solar panel to maximize power transfer. Their output is smoother - but pulsed charging during the absorb and float stages has not been shown to be detrimental to batteries.

Most people in the US do.

That's great! Now perhaps you could learn from people who _have_ battery banks and have lived with them for decades in solar power applications. You could then apply your new knowledge to your upcoming business endeavor and increase the likelihood of success. A good example is this statement:

You haven't been working around large scale storage batteries much if you think they are as "as safe as the little batteries in your TV remote." They're not - they require a high level of competence, respect and care to work with them safely.

For those who don't know what impedance is: it is the total resistance in electronic circuits.



Your statements:
"All they do is match the impedance between a battery bank and a solar panel to maximize power transfer"
Electrical and electronic theory: Impedance matching minimizes on heat. Which is detrimental to chargers, batteries, cables, and connectors! Therefore, extending life of battery banks.

I recommend you Google: Impedance Matching

Impedance is resistance: resistance controls current in a circuit which creates heat. So when you match the resistance in one device to another you create less heat. batteries in battery banks maintain their temperatures during charging prolonging the life of the battery.

I rest my case.

BTW: I was using MPPT as an example: there are other types of chargers out there that used multiple types of charging techniques depending on the chemistry of the battery bank and other sorts.

In my honest opinion MPPT is the best type of charging system for any battery bank. In my opinion they have increased the left span of battery banks compared to 40 years ago. If you don't believe that then take a hike and get off my thread.

[foo1bar]

a) 15 year warranty for any defects

With daily cycling?
If so, I think it'll be far too expensive to be commercially viable.

b) Cost effective for those that pay $600 / month on electricity: even if they go solar they will still pay local electric company over $1k per year.

$600/month on electricitly is quite a bit.
I don't see how it follows that people spending that amount would still pay the electric company $1k/year if installed solar.
Nor how you would build something with batteries that would reduce the amount paid to the POCO.

As others have pointed out, with net metering the POCO provides the "battery" for free.
They "store" the energy for months at no additional cost.
(Sure it's not actually a battery, nor is it stored energy - but from the homeowner's use model it acts the same way.)

If I were you, I wouldn't invest much into this endeavor.
You don't have a compelling reason for customers to buy it.

[DanKegel]

Where are you planning to sell these systems?
Whether a particular system is cost-effective depends strongly on local policies and conditions.

[jflorey2]

MPPT does extend the life of a battery bank. It does so many things behind the scenes that it is not worth my time trying to explain it to someone who doesn't understand it. You need to do your research into MPPT before opening your mouth.

I've designed MPPT power converters. And if you think that MPPT converters will make batteries last longer - then you are believing your own sales propaganda. All they do is match the impedance between a battery bank and a solar panel to maximize power transfer. Their output is smoother - but pulsed charging during the absorb and float stages has not been shown to be detrimental to batteries.

You don't need vehicles either . . .

Most people in the US do.

I am not here to start a war, I am here to do research and see how many people would like to have a battery bank.

That's great! Now perhaps you could learn from people who _have_ battery banks and have lived with them for decades in solar power applications. You could then apply your new knowledge to your upcoming business endeavor and increase the likelihood of success. A good example is this statement:

Also, I am here to let people know that battery banks are as safe as the little batteries in your TV remote.

You haven't been working around large scale storage batteries much if you think they are as "as safe as the little batteries in your TV remote." They're not - they require a high level of competence, respect and care to work with them safely.

[einsvanian]

Sure. It's definitely possible. (There are also lots of ways to screw up, and spend money on storage systems that don't make the user happy.) And storage is potentially more climate-friendly than generators.

The question is, a) what's the warranty duration, b) are they cost-effective, and c) are they user-friendly?
If they do last a long time, that will be reflected in the warranty (and if the vendor is stable and reputable, the warranty will probably mean something).

IIRC Hawaii (and New York, and Australia) are the markets where local storage is closest to cost-effective, and deployments are just now starting.

I'd like to hear about success or failure stories for the current generation of install-and-forget home storage systems. If you hear any, please pass them along.

Thank you for your response.

I like your statement "storage is more climate-friendly". Why didn't I think of that!

The ones I am trying to see if there is a market for:
a) 15 year warranty for any defects
b) Cost effective for those that pay $600 / month on electricity: even if they go solar they will still pay local electric company over $1k per year.
c) Completely Plug-n-Play and can be monitored.

Vendor stability and reputation is my main goal. I'm German-American heritage so either I can say German made or American made. I am also a Veteran of the US Military. Plus I am certified and will be established as a business once my research is done.

Okay, let me rephrase my statement: I can't say German made but I can say everything will be American made with German quality.

Or American Made with German Innovation, Integrity, and Quality. Or just say American Made with Innovation, Integrity, and Quality. I would love to build and give these battery banks to people for free but I can't. Maybe in the near future if I can sell enough of them I could probably donate a complete battery bank to those in need but being a startup it is not feasible now.

[einsvanian]

If not cycling very often or very deeply, sure they can.
The 5 year lifespan that is often used is I believe based on daily cycling - so really it's ~1800 cycles.



No, not much of one.

You're spending $10K for a 3000AH bank (unspecified voltage)

And your reasoning is that it'll let your kids watch TV and play video games if there's an outage.

Wouldn't a whole-house generator for $3K be a better choice? Or a noisier 2kW one for $500 serve the purpose?
I think $7000-$9500 will buy a LOT of fuel.

Thank you for your opinions:

5 year warranties are for manufacture defects and defects only! Cycling is a variable and that is why most manufacturers' offer only 5 year warranties on their batteries and some reduce it to 12 months when you mention battery banks. I called up Outback and asked them for a cost quote on their pre-bundled battery banks and was told $20k for a 500ah battery array plus it has to be installed inside. I'm providing at least a 3000ah bank for half that price and can be installed next to your weather head(load center). For larger consumers I would recommend 6000ah and more. The bigger the better.

In details of the 3000ah is 24vdc for my inverter but can be changed to 12, 24, 36, 48, and so forth. For instance, say someone wants to add one to Solar City's solar array and inverter: a battery bank can be built to produce 120vdc and higher. Back in the day during Edison, Tesla, Einstein, and so many others: Alternating current was the best solution at that time. Now days Direct Current is becoming more popular; and did you know that at least 50% of your home uses Direct Current. (TV's, Radios, Phones, etc., etc.) They all convert AC to Pulsating DC.

The amp hours are a tricky topic; depending on C/5, C15, C/20, C100 and so forth.

At C/20, the battery bank will be drained for 17 hours during the night at a rate of 75amps per hour which equates to 1725 amps total which drains the bank down to 42.5% capacity. The batteries I am using can be drained to 20% of capacity which most batteries(solar) can't handle. Also, I am using the grid as a backup source so in case of an emergency I can use the grid to charge batteries. I can program my charge controllers to turn on grid once the batteries reach 80% but I don't want to use the grid at all. This is my preference and I want to know how many are out there that are just like me. Also, my battery bank can either be the primary source or the back up system to the grid and vice versa.

Building a battery bank isn't just putting multiple batteries together and call it good. There is so much other things that are required that it is too time consuming to go into. For instance: chemical make up of batteries, cabling, temperatures, variable loading averages, locations, storage facilities, testing each battery and then the whole bank, and so many other factors.

Yes, you are right about using my kids as the only reason for battery banks. There are many reasons to go with a battery bank. Doomsayers love them for one (had to include them). Mom and Dad who are 70 to 90 years old enjoy their Air Conditioner. Families would benefit because we all know that kids are not energy compliant; they waste so much electricity. FEMA loves them for hurricane victims and natural disaster victims who go without power for months. Hospitals use them (i.e. someone on life support during a power outage). Better yet, say your relative is bed ridden and requires a lot of electronics to live; don't you want them to have a battery backup?

Battery banks don't have to power the whole house. Take the 600ah battery bank I built powered 80% of my home and was charged from the grid; my electric bill was $40 a month.

It is good you mentioned back up generators: instead of going solar why didn't you go with the generator? Many reasons: requires high maintenance (oil, fuel, fuel filters, air filters, oil filters, tune-ups, etc) ask any RV'er why they would want to go solar on their rigs. I'm an RV'er myself. A generator that uses gasoline or diesel will use about the same amount of fuel that a natural gas or propane generator uses. I've used my wall heater during the cold seasons out here and saw my natural gas bill go from $5 / month to $150 / month. So I can just imagine the costs to run a fossil fueled generator for a month. A battery bank doesn't need a lot of maintenance; and is automatically charged either by the grid or solar arrays.

My main reason for this, is that I am trying to convince people that battery banks are not that bad of a choice. To some it may not be feasible but to others it might make a big difference.

Did you know that most of the power outages from the local electric companies are test runs of terrorist attacks. They do drills in case of an attack. So sooner or later your system will go off: either by accidents or by scheduled outage. Repairs are always going to be needed on everything including battery banks.

I am here to just enlighten everyone that no matter what we do electricity will never be free. The closest you can get to free is going solar and/or using battery banks. Which no matter what you do you will have to pay for it. Those who use the grid will be charged for those who go solar and feed back into the grid. I'm solar and I still have to pay my local electric company.

[DanKegel]

So I am not blowing smoke up anyone's you-know-what when I say some batteries can last over 15 years. Those who are solar installers would agree they've seen batteries last over 5 years. Some would even agree that some batteries could last over 10 years.

Sure. It's definitely possible. (There are also lots of ways to screw up, and spend money on storage systems that don't make the user happy.) And storage is potentially more climate-friendly than generators.

The question is, a) what's the warranty duration, b) are they cost-effective, and c) are they user-friendly?
If they do last a long time, that will be reflected in the warranty (and if the vendor is stable and reputable, the warranty will probably mean something).

IIRC Hawaii (and New York, and Australia) are the markets where local storage is closest to cost-effective, and deployments are just now starting.

I'd like to hear about success or failure stories for the current generation of install-and-forget home storage systems. If you hear any, please pass them along.