Would you buy if offered Battery Bank?

[Sunking]

I think SK owes the OP an apology, in the interest of civility

Dan screw you and the OP You are an IDIOT and the OP is a LIAR. . Any electrician who can be hired, pull a permit, and pass inspection must be Licensed and Bonded. Take any Certification there is, and $2 will get you a cup of coffee in any Unemployment line. Certifications are not worth the paper they are printed on.

I am a Certified Doctor, bend over.

A C10 is not a CERTIFICATION. It is a LICENSE. Read it and weep. A very extremely limited LICENSE. They cannot even wire up a light switch in your house because they are not qualified or bonded to do so. CA is one of the few states with such low qualifications. In most other states they are called Go-Fers, Attack Rats, and Apprentices. To obtain a Electrician License depends on the state, but generally speaking 2-year technical education, 5 years documented experience (pay stubs), and pass a comprehensive written exam. That is just to be an Electrician working under a Contractor. To be Contractor takes another few years, another exam, and BONDED.

I am typing slowly for you Dan so you can understand. There is no such thing as a Certified Electrician. Just like an Engineer, there are no Certified Engineers. You either hold a PE License or you do not. Holding a certificate from Cisco does not entitle you to do anything. Just a piece of paper.

[DanKegel]

https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/ECU/CA_Electricians_Certified.pdf

says

State of California
Department of Industrial Relations
Division of Labor Standards Enforcement
Electrician Certification Unit
California Certified Electricians
as of 06/08/2016

and lists quite a few of them. Seems like they exist to me, offhand. No?

[DanKegel]

So... the list of 'california certified electricians' from the state is not acceptable evidence that there is such a thing as a certified electrician?

Remember, I'm only objecting to your statement that there is no such thing.

[J.P.M.]

Nor I. But I don't think being civil equates to political correctness.

Civility, like beauty, is often a matter of opinion. Your opinion that some of other member's behavior - probably a lot of mine - is not civil, however you choose to define that concept (and no, I'm not curious as to your definition might be).

My definition of civility (which you may or may not care about) includes, among other things, not wasting people's time, or giving out false, useless and what some consider deceptive information in areas where I'm ignorant - ignorant as in " I like science, but I'm no expert.".

I don't blather on a software engineering forum. I'm mostly ignorant of such things. That would be rude, like crapping in your living room and leaving you to clean up the mess before someone steps in it. So it is with this forum and a lot of what I consider the damage, actual or potential, you do here.

In those two respects - wasting other's time and disseminating poor/biased/incorrect/unvetted information - and some other things, I consider most of your behavior around here more rude, more counterproductive and probably more harmful than some PG -13 sarcasm/humor which may help us all not take ourselves quite so seriously.

However, I accept the idea of a pluralistic arrangement for this forum and society in general. Your opinion is yours and not mine. If you have less tolerance for such things, that seems to be your problem to deal with, as is what you consider other's uncivil ways.

As for what I see as your rude, selfish, ignorant behavior and attitude that can, and probably does lead more than a few well intentioned but solar ignorant folks down wasteful and costly blind alleys, I think that goes beyond rude and over the line. It may however, qualify as politically correct among a lot of the tree hugger crowd.

Some of us believe political correctness may, at times, qualify as rude behavior due to it being less than candidly honest - that is, P.C. is often premeditated B.S. Being respectful and civil means being straight with people. Not everyone who tells you what you don't like is wrong, or your enemy, or trying to hurt you or your feelings.

[DanKegel]

My definition of civility (which you may or may not care about) includes, among other things, not wasting people's time, or giving out false, useless and what some consider deceptive information in areas where I'm ignorant - ignorant as in " I like science, but I'm no expert.".

IIRC you objected because I sounded too much like an expert. Hence I added the disclaimer.

The next time I post something inaccurate, please let me know what the error is. I'm very interested in truth and accuracy, and in showing sources. Last time I asked, you didn't give me any specifics to go on.

[J.P.M.]

IIRC you objected because I sounded too much like an expert. Hence I added the disclaimer.

The next time I post something inaccurate, please let me know what the error is. I'm very interested in truth and accuracy, and in showing sources. Last time I asked, you didn't give me any specifics to go on.

If IIRC, I saw that disclaimer on your masthead before I caught on to your act. Maybe I'm incorrect on the timing, but that seems a couple of years ago or so. I do recall thinking the first time I saw it that it wasn't the best way I could think of to get people to take you seriously, then thinking (ironically as it turns out in the way this thread has degenerated into a pissing match about the differences between sarcasm and civility), it may be your attempt at sarcastic and self deprecating humor as a tool.

To perhaps clear up any delusions you may have about my opinions concerning your areas of expertize: You may recall flattering yourself into assuming I think you sound like an "expert", whatever that overused term might mean, and I might, but it's not with respect to solar, R.E., or most technical things related to those areas.

Similar to what others have posted, I simply wish you'd knock off the B.S. and also stop with the links to lame fluff, a lot of which you take out of context and I'd guess are not much of an expert about anyway, and then proceed to reinterpret the information to suit your version of reality that seems to support only one side of the R.E. discussion, with little or simplistic explanations or justifications of your reasons for the opinion.

I call B.S. on your stuff when I see it. That you don't know, and perhaps more than likely don't care to consider the possibly bad and unnecessary consequences of your not knowing what you're doing, and expecting me and/or others to identify your possible errors - in effect clean up after you - is IMO only, rude, selfish, boorish, inconsiderate, childish and (gasp !) uncivil.

Pick up after yourself. Your mother does not work here. Better yet, don't make the mess in the first place. Get a clue and stop embarrassing yourself as a bonus.

To me, your claimed interest in truth and accuracy rings a bit hollow. The idea of truth being relative aside for now, if truth and accuracy is really what you are after, I'd think you'd work a bit harder at giving those things a bit more work, more research, and a reality check before you throw your non expert version of what gives you the warm and fuzzies on the walls around here.

Having reached my limit of charitability by giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're not simply dancing with my leg, I'm done with this thread.

[DanKegel]

I simply wish you'd knock off the B.S. and also stop with the links to lame fluff

I'm afraid you'll have to be more specific than that. Next time you see me posting something inaccurate, I'll cheerfully accept corrections. Until then, I'll continue to ignore ad-hominem attacks.

Also: I get people mixed up, so it might have been somebody else that objected to me sounding too much like an expert.

[einsvanian]

To all, please keep all insults to yourself. I would really appreciate that.

I would like to share the chemistry but then that gives up my proprietary design. The batteries do exist and are manufactured at least 1000 per month. I plan to double that if not triple if there is a market for battery banks. As of right now the batteries cost $250 each but I am working with the manufacturer to drop down to $150 each battery. If I can't prove there is a market then I can't convince the manufacturer that I would be buying at least 2000 batteries per month.

I can say it is neither: lithium, iron, or phosphorous. It is a basic design created by Mr. Tesla himself several years ago. Remember: Tesla now days is using lithium due to weight limitations in his vehicles.

I understand that 15 years has not been proven by any known entity but I am using my experience and knowledge to offer 15 years. I have no doubt that these batteries will last 15 years or more. It requires a lot of attention in how to prolong the life of a battery and how to properly SIZE the battery bank! That is what I am offering with the design of the battery banks I plan to sell.

As a certified electrician I can get my California Contracting License just by taking the test and paying the fees. I would not have to attend a school for my license due to my background. You are right I can't just commercially install with my certifications; they are just paper trophies. I would have to be insured/bonded and authorized as a contractor in the state of California before installing anything. I can non-commercially install without license but California puts a limit to how much I can charge: if I remember right, anything over $500 in a year requires license. Which selling and installing for $10k is over that. I haven't decided yet if I want to install them; in the beginning my plans was to build and sell only but I am considering installing them to so that I can make sure they are properly sized and installed to my specifications. I do know contractors and engineers that I can offer partnership if needed. We all know that some installers cut corners; this is why I am highly considering installing them or give out authorization to specific installers.

The battery banks I plan to sell would come already built inside a storage box and have external connectors to connect to: house, solar arrays, and grid. The battery banks contain: batteries, charge controllers, and inverter/chargers to include all the cables and connectors. The storage box is climate controlled to keep batteries and electronic equipment at their suggested manufacturer's operating temperature. this would help in prolonging their lifespan. This also allows the battery bank to be installed outside. Depending on the size of the battery bank the smallestg dimensions will be 54 cubic feet 3'x3'x6' and larger.

I plan to offer at least a $3.6 million dollar contract to the battery manufacturer and hopefully this will give them an incentive to look into offering a longer warranty and lower the costs. Even if they don't budge on warranty I will still offer a 15 year warranty to my customers.

[einsvanian]

To add: UL listing is something I have looked into but it is not required. The requirements are to meet NEC standards to include the local standards (now some standards require UL to be listed but most do not).
Most of the equipment I am using are UL listed so It is being met but not with the complete system.

I understand if I am wrong or I mistyped or explained something incorrectly; I am not perfect; correct me but please don't use insults to do so.

[einsvanian]

So, I'm off grid, have daily consumption of about 12KWh summer and 9KWh in winter. Currently using a 800Ah 48V bank with thousands of $$ in 48V gear.
I have 5KW of PV, and usually have been in float for a hour or more if it's a sunny day. Do you know of another battery bank I should be using ?

And I question your statement that UL is not required. AFIK, electrical gear connected to household electric system needs UL cert to meet homeowners insurance requirements, and most city codes also require UL cert. How do you comply with that ?

With the information provided it is very hard to figure out if your system is properly sized. It sounds like it is.
Keep in mind, earlier posted, I used a 600ah battery bank which powered my house for up to 6 hours total at night. That is because I use about 1.5kw to 2.5kw per hour. When we sleep we use about 500watt total; 1kw when my RV is plugged in.

If you are not losing power in the middle of the night the 800ah is sized to handle all night but at what level of capacity is it being drained to? Going to a higher amp-hour bank decreases how much you drain them per night. Increasing the amp-hour size will decrease the amps drained from your bank prolonging the life of the battery bank. Rephrase: it is better to drain a 75ah battery by 1 amp per hour instead of 3.75amps per hour.

Example: take a 75ah battery with C/20 discharge rate: gives you 3.75amps per hour for 20 hours until the battery is dead. So, with that said you want to only drain your battery bank by 20% of its capacity. 20% of a 75ah battery is 15amps total which drawing 3.75amps per hour gives you 4 hours of runtime. My design is to provide more batteries for larger battery banks at the same cost as leading competitors.

The equipment used in my system comply by being UL listed. Mostly everything now days is UL listed. Lightbulbs, inverters, charge controllers, etc. etc.

[einsvanian]

I forgot to mention what ever your batteries rating is and amp-hours: for a 200ah @ C/100: take 200 divide by 100 gives 2amps per hour is recommended for these batteries. If you drain them by anything higher than 2 amps per hour you decrease the C/** rating.

C/5, C/10, C/15, C/20, and C/100 states what amps they drain their batteries during testing by taking amp-hours and dividing it by the 5, 10, 15, 20, 24, or 100.

Example: a 265ah battery @ C/100 is a 229ah battery @ C/24: Deka Solar Batteries. Manufacturers use the higher rating to get the higher amp hours. The higher they go the less amperage they used to drain their batteries during their testing phase. This is a sales technique they use to sell their batteries to customers. I use the C/20 as standards for my systems.

[Sunking]

The next time I post something inaccurate, please let me know what the error is. I'm very interested in truth and accuracy, and in showing sources. .

Hogwash Dan, you have no concern for facts. That is what you got beat up as a kid and beaten up here.

[Sunking]

To all, please keep all insults to yourself. I would really appreciate that.

Blow it out your arse. You are a phonie and a liar.

[Sunking]

As a certified electrician I can get my California Contracting License just by taking the test and paying the fees.

See you admitted you are a fake. Your so called certification is not worth the paper it is printed on.

See that Dan?

[einsvanian]

See you admitted you are a fake. Your so called certification is not worth the paper it is printed on.

See that Dan?

Sunking, I am sorry you feel that way. News flash your MSEE, PE are pieces of paper as well.

I've worked with people like you and I swear there were times I wanted to short circuit your pencil sharpener and turn your graphite into a conductor, Pencil Pusher.

I've worked on designs people like you pushed through to technicians like me and I sent back with several corrections. I've got into battles when I wouldn't sign off on their designs and I watched them throw tantrums and outbursts like little toddlers. I am really leaning towards you being an Engineer who thinks his **** doesn't stink and that all his designs are feasible and get but hurt when they are not and then throw tantrums when the tech says your crap doesn't work!

You think you sit high and mighty on your degree and think you are talking down to others but instead you are bringing others down to your level. Your experience, personality, and childish ways are sub par compared to all of the members on this thread. Your degrees don't mean crap to me just by the way you act.

Sorry Moderator: I tried to hold my tongue. I hate pencil pushers like Sunking. No offense to other engineers; I worked with some great engineers and we learned a lot together. I've worked with engineers like Sunking and I always put them in their spot; without technicians like me their designs are crap.

[SunEagle]

Sunking, I am sorry you feel that way. News flash your MSEE, PE are pieces of paper as well.

I've worked with people like you and I swear there were times I wanted to short circuit your pencil sharpener and turn your graphite into a conductor, Pencil Pusher.

I've worked on designs people like you pushed through to technicians like me and I sent back with several corrections. I've got into battles when I wouldn't sign off on their designs and I watched them throw tantrums and outbursts like little toddlers. I am really leaning towards you being an Engineer who thinks his **** doesn't stink and that all his designs are feasible and get but hurt when they are not and then throw tantrums when the tech says your crap doesn't work!

You think you sit high and mighty on your degree and think you are talking down to others but instead you are bringing others down to your level. Your experience, personality, and childish ways are sub par compared to all of the members on this thread. Your degrees don't mean crap to me just by the way you act.

Sorry Moderator: I tried to hold my tongue. I hate pencil pushers like Sunking. No offense to other engineers; I worked with some great engineers and we learned a lot together. I've worked with engineers like Sunking and I always put them in their spot; without technicians like me their designs are crap.

Actually Sunking probably has more field and hands on experience then most engineers maybe me included. I only have about 40 years of engineering and maybe 25 of that in the field.

Still you have to understand your claims concerning this revolutionary battery may be hard to swallow since people like Musk dropped it as well as battery companies like A 123 battery (one of many) went out of business.

[jflorey2]

No offense to other engineers; I worked with some great engineers and we learned a lot together.

Let's see if you can do that this time. For example, you don't understand how MPPT charge controllers work; that will be important if you are planning to try to sell power storage systems for solar power installations. If you can learn about that, it will help you with your efforts.

[einsvanian]

Actually Sunking probably has more field and hands on experience then most engineers maybe me included. I only have about 40 years of engineering and maybe 25 of that in the field.

Still you have to understand your claims concerning this revolutionary battery may be hard to swallow since people like Musk dropped it as well as battery companies like A 123 battery (one of many) went out of business.

Well, the way he posts makes me think he is some wet-behind-the-ear 20 year old graduate or a stuck up engineer who needs to retire his degree.

If he does have the knowledge and experience as you say then he is being senile and picking fights for amusement; then he got the best of me.

If I provided the plans to any engineer I guarantee they would stamp it. I guarantee both of you would sign off on it as well. You both would also agree that the batteries I use would go at least 15 years if not 20 once you look into the design and chemistry make up.

You would also agree: climate-controlled storage box with a "Void Warranty if Broken" would help prolong battery banks and equipment. You would also agree that discharging each battery in the bank at less than 1amp each would also prolong them and discharging them by only 20% of capacity would do the same. Though the batteries I am using can be drained down to 20% capacity and have no effect on performance and in all reality doing this actually prolongs the batteries.

[einsvanian]

The battery technology is way before Musk. It was during the time when AC and DC were being considered as the primary source.

[einsvanian]

Let's see if you can do that this time. For example, you don't understand how MPPT charge controllers work; that will be important if you are planning to try to sell power storage systems for solar power installations. If you can learn about that, it will help you with your efforts.

I already know how MPPT works; I use it on the 6400ah battery banks at work. It is just one way to charge batteries. I use a much smarter way.

[einsvanian]

If you have any mismatched impedance what happens is that the voltage hits either a higher or lower resistance in the battery; when this occurs if high it has some of the charge reflected back to the charge controller and heat is created (bad for chargers); if low the batteries get high current which creates heat inside the battery (bad for batteries). Matching the resistance inside the battery the charge controller can provide a more smoother current with no reflection to itself and doesn't over flood the batteries with high current. No matter what there will always be heat. MPPT minimizes heat and distortion between solar array, controller, and battery (bank).

Batteries are not all the same: some will be higher in resistance and others will be lower. Manufacturers try to get them identical but that is only in a perfect world. MPPT takes the whole impedance and matches that. You will get different currents still going to each battery and that is where you get the miss matched resistance and heat is generated.

What MPPT does is it provides a defined current matched at the overall impedance of the battery bank. Each battery in the bank will take a portion of that charge according to their resistance; so in all reality each battery is provided with the exact amount of current it needs to charge without burning it up.

Also, MPPT acts as a DC to DC converter. It doesn't use dummy loads to reduce voltage it does it even smarter. It kind of transforms the voltage or steps down the voltage allowing a higher current on the 2nd winding and lower amperage on the primary winding. Dummy loads drop voltage and current and creates heat which is wasted. Either it transforms using maybe an isolation transformer or it uses solid state devices to reduce voltage; haven't really Google'd any schematics but it lowers the DC voltage with minimal loss to maximize power output. There is still loss but a lot less than PWM chargers.

So with that said: MPPT doesn't force the panels to drop voltage which creates heat; the MPPT does it for the panels. I can go on longer but I think this will give others plenty to nit pick and misunderstand. I'll be making updates.

In other words: It Isolates the Solar Array from the Battery Bank with minimal loss in current and heat.